T-800 upmap for Arrow pipes

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KurtP said:
@ArcticWhite @vcyclenut Im guessing this will be a long wait on a train don’t come........

make sure when you post your data you show us what data logging tool you’re using to capture it all. Your data should be easy to replicate.

i speculate that reality is that you guys are living a decade or two in the past, and dont even have the logging tools to capture the data to support the things youre claiming as truth. I hope I’m wrong.
Click to expand...
I don't know even where to start. The way you are approaching this, no one will want to have a technical discussion with you. Calling me 20 years in the past, "you are smarter than that" and then essentially saying you've called me out and shouldn't get a response. Everyone loses when you take this approach.

We are not even disagreeing on that much. I'm not disagreeing that O2 shifting does work. Just that it has it's limits. This is spanning multiple threads, but from my thread I was just disagreeing with your "everything else is crap, the only way to get your bike to run good is closed loop, narrow band, O2 shifting." Everything else is Brah, hold my beer while I have to retune. This is simply not true, and you don't need to look farther than OEM tuning strategies and after market stuff. Very few are using shifting (name a tuning shop for cars or bikes that relies on narrow band O2 shifting). There are a multitude of shops using the OEM strategy or speed density and getting excellent results. This is the norm, not the exception. If you don't believe this, then show me some tuning websites that state this.

Yes, voltage shifting is a simpler way to bring the 14.7 cruise down to upper 13's low 14's, in which these bikes run better and smother at cruise. Is it quick and a somewhat elegant solution? Yes. Is it as powerful as other solutions no. And by powerful I mean giving you the tools to deal with getting the bike to run excellent everywhere under all conditions. This is only one part of the equation. You still have to tune and deal with when the ecu switches to open loop. narrow band shifting does not solve this. There will still have to be table tuning done under open loop operation.

As for your graphs. The first graph doesn't prove anything on O2 shifting. It shows your TPS increased (doesn't show the scale for it, so was it 100%, I don't know), your RPM's increase, and your lamba held fixed at 1v. The second graph shows that the AFR was at 13 and then went to 14. However, there appears to be issues with it, if this is proof that the 13 was a result of shifting. Typical narrow band operation will jump into the 15's and low 14's. Your graph is showing a much tighter narrow band afr variance. This appears to be too tight for typical narrow band operation. Yes, #3 looks like typical O2 voltage switching. #4 Well, these graphs don't have proper scales, don't tell you what the scales are, and don't tell you what the graph is trying to demonstrate. Not very scientific. Is the lambda plotted it this one trying to demonstrate the shifted lamba response? If so, why isn't it overlaid on the non-shifted response? Quite frankly, I don't see anything in these graphs that shows the shifting and how it results in a shifted AFR.

Anyway, unless your approach changes and you start to present an attitude you want to truly explore this scientifically, there is no point in continuing these debates in multiple threads.
 
ArcticWhite said:
I don't know even where to start. The way you are approaching this, no one will want to have a technical discussion with you. Calling me 20 years in the past, "you are smarter than that" and then essentially saying you've called me out and shouldn't get a response. Everyone loses when you take this approach.

We are not even disagreeing on that much. I'm not disagreeing that O2 shifting does work. Just that it has it's limits. This is spanning multiple threads, but from my thread I was just disagreeing with your "everything else is crap, the only way to get your bike to run good is closed loop, narrow band, O2 shifting." Everything else is Brah, hold my beer while I have to retune. This is simply not true, and you don't need to look farther than OEM tuning strategies and after market stuff. Very few are using shifting (name a tuning shop for cars or bikes that relies on narrow band O2 shifting). There are a multitude of shops using the OEM strategy or speed density and getting excellent results. This is the norm, not the exception. If you don't believe this, then show me some tuning websites that state this.

Yes, voltage shifting is a simpler way to bring the 14.7 cruise down to upper 13's low 14's, in which these bikes run better and smother at cruise. Is it quick and a somewhat elegant solution? Yes. Is it as powerful as other solutions no. And by powerful I mean giving you the tools to deal with getting the bike to run excellent everywhere under all conditions. This is only one part of the equation. You still have to tune and deal with when the ecu switches to open loop. narrow band shifting does not solve this. There will still have to be table tuning done under open loop operation.

As for your graphs. The first graph doesn't prove anything on O2 shifting. It shows your TPS increased (doesn't show the scale for it, so was it 100%, I don't know), your RPM's increase, and your lamba held fixed at 1v. The second graph shows that the AFR was at 13 and then went to 14. However, there appears to be issues with it, if this is proof that the 13 was a result of shifting. Typical narrow band operation will jump into the 15's and low 14's. Your graph is showing a much tighter narrow band afr variance. This appears to be too tight for typical narrow band operation. Yes, #3 looks like typical O2 voltage switching. #4 Well, these graphs don't have proper scales, don't tell you what the scales are, and don't tell you what the graph is trying to demonstrate. Not very scientific. Is the lambda plotted it this one trying to demonstrate the shifted lamba response? If so, why isn't it overlaid on the non-shifted response? Quite frankly, I don't see anything in these graphs that shows the shifting and how it results in a shifted AFR.

Anyway, unless your approach changes and you start to present an attitude you want to truly explore this scientifically, there is no point in continuing these debates in multiple threads.
Click to expand...

goodness

youve demonstrated you dont know how closed loop operation works, which makes this difficult. In one paragraph you say voltage shifting works, after previously saying it cant be done, then in the next paragraph you say the data i showed you of voltage shifting doing exactly what we want it to do, isnt showing what its showing.

ive asked you at least half a dozen times over the last week or so to post the data you have to prove me wrong about openloop adaptation and teach me your perspective. You simply wont do it Or cant do it because you dont actually have the data. Im not sure how my attitude could have been better when im all but begging you to show us what youre doing.

ive said multiple times adjusting closed loop is only part of the equation. Its great for someone riding a stock bike or a bike with an upmap youre otherwise happy with. It Probably will leave some power on the table over a custom dyno tune, but it has benefits for a road going bike. Ive said multiple times its about priorities.

anyway, i guess thats that. Good luck tuning your bike.
 
ducatiforum.com

Tuneboy map feature for 1299 and Panigale R

This is a little info about the new features in the V5 TuneBoy maps. The 1299 and Panigale R files are at this link Files for 1299 and Pani R One feature is the throttle map switching, this adds two extra power modes. The standard 1299 maps have restricted throttle opening in the first few...
ducatiforum.com ducatiforum.com
 
KurtP said:
Re your other post. Putting this here to try and get the other thread back on track.

Yeah they wan the o2 sensors pulled out. what they want is to force the bike to run open loop on the map they programmed.

i dont think anyone has clarity on whether or not the t800 simply disables the error code for removing the O2 sensors or if the o2 sensors are disabled.
Click to expand...
the 02 sensors are disabled with the upmap just like the exhaust valve
 
1- what data logging tool/interface are you using to connect to the V4? I have a couple, in this case I will be using a zeitronics combined with a woolich log box

2- do you have the ability to look at how much operation time is closed loop? ie closed loop to throttle angle X and rpm Y NO, . Its not that simple, if it was it would be much easier to deal with the shortcomings of the stock closed loop fueling. Instead the algorithm they use is not that predictable. Its not set at a certain rpm and throttle position. This makes it switch over differently in different situations and changes the switch over point related to rpm and throttle position from corner to corner. Very aggravating when the closed loop fueling is off.



3- do we know what the limit range of adjustment is for short term fuel trim and long term fuel trim? I have never seen a long or short term trim table in a stock ecu. I am not writing codes for the flashing equipment i only have access to the tables they make available. It would make sense they have them for closed loop but i have no access to see them

4- is that chart from the V4 ecu, if not, can i get the actual please? The chart i posted is a generic narrow band voltage vs air fuel chart i dont have one for the V4 but its the stock o2 sensor you need the chart for not the bike. There is no reason to believe the stock o2 sensors on the v4 would behave any different. O2 sensors from my understanding are just a type of galvanic cell.

as far as the optimizers go, i can get them made, i just need to know where to get the O2 plug connections so it can snap in. So you have not used one or data logged on on a V4? Which means you cant say for sure this strategy would work on the v4.

the requirement isnt to alter voltage much, it only takes minor adjustments to alter the afr. We’re making adjustments by the fraction of a volt at a time. +

It depends on where the current air fuel is how much you need to alter it. That is the whole point. You can make the narrow band work well in a narrow band, hence the name. If that chart is accurate than if the air fuel is between 14.2:1 and 16:1 you get a nice response from it. This is not a desired air fuel. The air fuel we are looking for is
all between 1 and .8 volt. Not much variation to work with to get good corrections. Add it natural variation and error from sensor to sensor and this is not good.

My experience with o2 optimizers is they are a nice band aid till you can get to a real tuning solution. They can shift the air fuel the desired direction and make the bike nicer to ride but they can not get the accuracy that a good tune can get. I dont save my data logs and i havent tried an o2 optimizer in a few years so I dont have any proof to back up what im saying , so take it how you want.

As far as proof that turning the o2 sensors off and creating a proper tune using open loop and the other sensors on the bike works well. Do any internet search on google, redit, you tube for flashed by vcyclenut and you will find tons of great reviews on my work. I do mail in flashing and ship my ECU's all over the United States and Canada. My tunes are used at pretty much every temperature and elevation you can ride in. I have a lot of very happy customers as my proof. Again take it how you want.

You really took a shot at artic white and myself that was shity, i usually dont give people that respond like you did this much of my time. If your real goal is to learn you should tone it down a bunch if you just want to get into a im smarter then you pissing contest then take it somewhere else. I dont know your background or your knowledge base but IMO you are coming across as someone that thinks he has a lot more knowledge then he does. If im wrong im ok with that
 
sigh. Still no data.

most people ride a bike and when it feels faster And youll get a good review. It should be simple to show the “how“ of what youre doing working in the scenarios i laid out. I would love for you to be right because your method is easier. Lambda shifting works on any o2 sensor for closed loop. How much is the question. And its based on a number of factors.

ive said multiple times i hope im wrong about what you guys can do with openloop mapping. Ive asked multiple times for the data that shows it. Ive showed data of what im doing is successful, and you just say “it doesnt work.”

You guys both got the response you deserved, frankly. you dont get to say what youre doing works and not provide data when asked and say something isnt working in the face of data that proves it does.

Begs the question. When one person is asking questions for explanations, data that supports it, and provides the data that shows how their method works, and the other just says “doesnt work” and says “ive got all this experience”, who might be the ones that think they know more than they do?
 
Advice please.

Firstly the rear O2 sensor plug is a ..... to get to but I’m there.

When I loaded the original map back in with the upmap everything seems to go smoothly and it got to the end and said it was complete.

After that when I turned the ignition on and still had the O2 sensors connected it still said Racing Pro which was strange. I thought that was only with the upmap. Maybe it is that it is still going through the upmap?

Not being super familiar with the upmap I could not really see where it says which map is loaded. I tried to load the original map again and said it couldn’t do it so maybe that is because it was already on there.

Can anyone tell me exactly where you see which map is on the bike?

Anyway I ran out of time but in the morning I will reload the upmap map and disconnect and remove the O2 sensors and see how we go.


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I had this issue too. The 1st time I loaded the stock map from upmap, it still said race pro. The 2nd time I did it race pro was gone, but I still didn't throw an exhaust DTC despite having no exhaust valve. The only way my bike went truly back to stock was having the dealer flash it.

However, you are not trying to return to stock, you are trying to reset the fuel trims. We have no way of knowing if using their software to go to stock and then flashing their map again will do this, but i thought it must because it has to zero them the first time you flash their map.

This is what wrecked my confidence in what upmap was doing (besides the fact my bike didn't run well). It said it was flashing to stock, said it was successful, but clearly had elements of their tune in the ECU and I would get a different result doing the same thing twice. This is not supposed to happen with proper flashing.

Anyway, here is the procedure.

To flash to stock: Select motorcycles. Select restore map.

To flash your upmap tune:
Select Maps. Select the map you want to flash.

f2238b443bd99ed8cf6eff2d2b1be6ee.jpg
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Yep. That’s exactly the process I did.

Will try again today.

Thanks


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Guys, this is an interesting thread ! After reading through all your opinions, like Motzarelli I think I now have more questions :

1. Disconnecting and / or Removing the exhaust sensors.....are you guys sure about this ? If this is necessary, shouldn't the T-800 Upmap people put some sort of instructions with their product ??? I haven't seen anything from UpMap or any other vendor. The UpMap website mentions that the sensors are disabled but says nothing about disconnecting or removing them.

2. Similarly with what you're suggesting about performing a 2 x base map heat cycle calibration run with the new slip on pipes installed, before applying the T-800 Upmap. - Why the f**k would this not be documented anywhere ??

3. KurtP - my understanding is that you're suggesting that we can continue using the stock exhaust sensors with the T-800 Upmap, to get the best result of closed loop feedback, but would need to lower the stock sensor output voltage, is that right ? If so,
- how do you know this ?
- what did you use to do this - resistor bridge ? Other ? Is there someone selling a product for this purpose ?

- again is there any sort of documentation about this ?


I don't mean to keep harping on about documentation but these are $40k bikes and Ducati are notorious for voiding warranty claims, and EVERYONE on the internet has a different opinion.

I've been running the T-800 Upmap, Sprint Race filter and Arrow slipons (older version) on my 2018 V4S happily for 18 months now, with the exhaust sensors still in the headers and connected. Bike has 7000km on it, half of which was done on the track.

THANKS
 
I had an email trail I posted from upmap earlier in this thread or the very recent arrow thread.

Basically they say you have to disconnect. You don’t have to remove but apparently you will damage the sensors if they are left in the exhaust flow without being operational so if you ever want to use them to go back to stock or for a different closed loop tuning solution they will be stuffed.

My bike seemed to be getting slower but I thought I was just getting g used to it but then when I redid everything I’m confident it had way more poke. Always hard to tell around city streets. I’m at the track in a couple of weeks so fingers crosssed


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Right. Here's an email I got from them overnight too (below). Basically they say, no need for the heat cycle exhaust-only base map calibration, but yes disconnect or remove the sensors. There's no mention of damage to the sensors - I don't understand how anything would get damaged ?

From UpMap :

No you can immediately install our dedicated mapping for your bike.

Yes, we recommend disconnecting the lambda probes.

It can also disconnect only the cables.


Thoughts ?

Motzarelli, two questions, 1. how'd you notice the power dropoff exactly ? And 2. where'd you get the exhaust bungs ? I'm in Sydney too. Thanks
 
When powered O2 sensors have heaters in them that burn off contaminants. When not powered they plug up.

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RobertH said:
Right. Here's an email I got from them overnight too (below). Basically they say, no need for the heat cycle exhaust-only base map calibration, but yes disconnect or remove the sensors. There's no mention of damage to the sensors - I don't understand how anything would get damaged ?

From UpMap :

No you can immediately install our dedicated mapping for your bike.

Yes, we recommend disconnecting the lambda probes.

It can also disconnect only the cables.


Thoughts ?

Motzarelli, two questions, 1. how'd you notice the power dropoff exactly ? And 2. where'd you get the exhaust bungs ? I'm in Sydney too. Thanks
Click to expand...

Power seemed to drop gradually but it is hard to tell when riding these bikes around town.

I got the bungs from a guy in brookvale that does custom motorbike work for $30 for the pair. I’m guessing any motorcycle place that does custom exhaust or tuning will have them. Where are you based?


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Motzarelli said:
Power seemed to drop gradually but it is hard to tell when riding these bikes around town.

I got the bungs from a guy in brookvale that does custom motorbike work for $30 for the pair. I’m guessing any motorcycle place that does custom exhaust or tuning will have them. Where are you based?
Click to expand...

Agreed - would be hard to tell power dropoff riding around town.
Thanks for the tip re : Brookvale - I'm not far from there, what's the name of the shop please ?

ArcticWhite - thanks mate that makes sense.

Now to completely put my mind to rest, does anyone have a good explanation about the "run two heat cycles with exhaust only and base map first, before changing the map" thing ?

Thanks fellas
 
Start the bike let the fan come on, fan turns off, comes on again... should be set.... Idk if it actually does anything. Arctic has a good explanation in another thread but basically it’s not self tuning
 
I just ordered and arrow slip on and map. Good info here I'll be referring to

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