the death of the panigale?

the silly thing about this argument is :
ducati was dominating with less displacement just a few years ago
and that bike was a nightmare to sort out on the racetrack. (arguably)

the advantages of a twin on the track are again fairly obvious
torque and agility being a few examples .
any of you guys even sat on a 1000cc inline they are as wide as a freight liner.

the stock ducati vs stock kawasaki is equal in HP. and you can't argue that the kawa has more potential or room to exract hp because you can rev it higher.
the twin has traction and power in places an inline will never compete.

truth is this is a bargaining process with wsbk . they hamstring anyone who is on top and anyone who dominates . ducati is in politics of racing . if it was just racing they would be using what ever tire they want and the rules would not be so counter productive . or at least the rules would be used to govern expenses and the out of control horsepower race. instead the rules raise the price of competition and encourage the black hole of technology produced horsepower arsenal buildup.

think about my point: is the honda for example a terrible track bike? is it as good as the kawasaki? why aren't they dominating in wsbk . Its all about the $$$$ and how the manufactures view their potential sales from racing . its also about funds allocation Kawasaki really only has wsbk to funnel it racing effort into

I also believe that yamaha is trying to get into the exotic market by producing such an expensive 1000cc bike . but again a little of this price increase is due to the wsbk mentality of more hp more electronics more expensive unubtainium .

In my opinion if a bubble pops it will be the racing organization not the ducati twin.

Well the desmocidicci didn't hurt Ducati twin sales. I truly think they can have a moto GP/SBK derived race bike and I think they'll sell enough worldwide to meet any homologation requirements.

I am not worried. I will buy the next generation superbike that Ducati produces regardless of displacement or configuration. It will be a Ducati!!

Thamer said:

Well the desmocidicci didn't hurt Ducati twin sales. I truly think they can have a moto GP/SBK derived race bike and I think they'll sell enough worldwide to meet any homologation requirements.

I am not worried. I will buy the next generation superbike that Ducati produces regardless of displacement or configuration. It will be a Ducati!!

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Well put, very well put.. I'm with you on the next generation, tho something about the phrase "last of the Vtwins" has a glamorous antiquity to it, oozing future desirability, not from a monetary standpoint, more of a historical point of view.
But, my view on development/racing in conjunction with production bikes where Ducati is concerned is maybe the power train will change but we'll get the full frame/trellis back from the current stressed member.. What do I know tho.. I think their all artwork anyway...

Im sure the next bike will be magical. Every evolution and piece of tech that is in the panigale has and is leading to the next Ducati superbike.

1. It will come in Red
2. It will probably stall
3. There will be a "base" and "S" and an "R"
4. The paint will be thin
5. It will get hot, people will complain

The advantage the twins had over the I4's ,torque ,tractable power delivery, light weight, less frontal area, 250cc extra displacement, has been negated, by rules changes, engine development, and Electronics. The only real advantage Ducati has anymore is frontal area/ aerodynamics, you can see it 2/3 of the way down the straits, and in the top speed numbers. The Aprillia's have a good aero profile with the V4 and are killing the STK1000 class, give Ducati back the old displacement formula, and they will dominate WSBK again.

Grayson said:

Im sure the next bike will be magical. Every evolution and piece of tech that is in the panigale has and is leading to the next Ducati superbike.

1. It will come in Red
2. It will probably stall
3. There will be a "base" and "S" and an "R"
4. The paint will be thin
5. It will get hot, people will complain

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Or it could be a flop, like the 999. I had a 999r and to some extent wish I kept it. My new 1199 s is leaps and bound above, but I still have a little place for the 999r, even tho it was hated by most.

ed218 said:

Or it could be a flop, like the 999. I had a 999r and to some extent wish I kept it. My new 1199 s is leaps and bound above, but I still have a little place for the 999r, even tho it was hated by most.

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I liked the 999 series. It was unique!

ed218 said:

Or it could be a flop, like the 999. I had a 999r and to some extent wish I kept it. My new 1199 s is leaps and bound above, but I still have a little place for the 999r, even tho it was hated by most.

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Just think about a 999R with today's technology and engineering behind it.









Yeah that's right, wipe the drool from your screen.

"Gigi" Dall'Igna replied: "Ducati is historically motorcycle bi-cylindrical. In the future, who knows, " ending the sentence with a laugh

somehow I sense a v4 is the way to go

Macattack said:

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but,,,,

Why does everyone seem to blame the bike?

are we saying that chaz Davies is in the same category as

Carl Fogerty ?

Troy baylis ?

Checa?

IMO sykes is a champion and would win on any of the bike mfgrs He is friggin fast.

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I think bikes play a major role too. J. Rea is constantly placing 6th-9th while he was ridding the cbr1000rr , but when he switched too the zx10r he is winning races. on the other hand Sykes placings is not so good right now because of the new changes they made with the zx10r and he is having a hard time to adopt. he is placing 4th-5th for the past races and had 2nd place in the last race

The twin has no future in high level racing, take it to the bank. It's a fantastic street engine though

Macattack said:

the silly thing about this argument is :
ducati was dominating with less displacement just a few years ago
and that bike was a nightmare to sort out on the racetrack. (arguably)

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When? The 1098R which was their race bike was a 1198cc engine - same displacement as the 1199.

They didn't dominate with less displacement. They had equal displacement to the 1199 (and Bayliss and Checa).

What advantages the V twin platform offered (tractable power, easier on tires) has been eliminated with the advance of electronics. When the 1098 was winning electronics were less sophisticated.

Revs = HP. More cylinders = more revs. Ducati has pushed the twin platform as far as it can go with the 1199. Two choices: boost displacement, boost cylinders.

It is good to see the Panigale being very competitive, and now even on WSBK.

I am surprised that the Panigale lasted this long and how it even came out in the first place, considering the "failure" of the frameless design in MotoGP. Different platform, same concept, same issues.

It's a beautiful bike.

As far as the name, Ferrari does the same name designation to their model cars and they do "go out" after a few years also.

The Panigale isn't a TL-1000s nor is it suffering with a lack of factory support. In the 80's Foggy was able to win due to rule changes and remain "competitive" the twins were able to hang with the screaming IL4's. Revs went higher and higher.

Remember how long Aprilla struggled with her weight and power, and they finally nailed it a few years back. In the context of WSB the Panigale has the weight issue under control its the other variables it seems.

However to the OP's original post it would seem that the Ghostdog6 has a very good point. They will have to get the rules "bent" again like in the 80's or perhaps get another slug or two like the Aprilla?

I think perhaps more lightening of internal components combined with greater emphasis on TC and electronics and overall weight savings? Its gonna be interesting!

Macattack said:

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but,,,,

Why does everyone seem to blame the bike?

are we saying that chaz Davies is in the same category as

Carl Fogerty ?

Troy baylis ?

Checa?

IMO sykes is a champion and would win on any of the bike mfgrs He is friggin fast.

Click to expand...

My feeling too. I think Ducati's riders are not the best available...but of course, it's harder to sign the best if you're bike isn't the best already. Guilianno was very aggressive, and crashed often...and a crash before the season even started sealed his fate this year. I do thank Chaz has done exceptionally well though. The rider does make a big difference...
But...there's always a the bike...Look how much Rea has improved on a new bike...and look how poorly the defending Champ is doing on new bike....

Duck41 said:

Does the raucous bellow of a Ducati V4 await us?

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Tha'ts most likely the outcome... But his article is extremely vague and cryptic.
i doubt ducati will abandon the frameless design, but if the engine CC's capped at 1200, they may definitely have to figure out something to get more power out of the engine to compete. WSBK cannot afford to have ducati pull out, they just now started getting more manufacture's in, (kaw, BMW, possibly Yamaha). Ducati has pull in racing...i doubt any rule changes would completely eliminate the panigale from racing.

why would rossi have won by now on the gp15. rossi had the same bike as stoner and couldnt ride it. he has won 5 races in the last 5 years thats 1 race a year with a proven winner the m1 and couldnt do a thing on a bike he didnt like the ducati. so now you think he would have won at least one race on a bike thats 2 months old. stop the nonsense. the reason ducati was in the postion it was in was BECAUSE of rossi now you think he would have won on the bike already. hahaha

mark419ny said:

why would rossi have won by now on the gp15. rossi had the same bike as stoner and couldnt ride it. he has won 5 races in the last 5 years thats 1 race a year with a proven winner the m1 and couldnt do a thing on a bike he didnt like the ducati. so now you think he would have won at least one race on a bike thats 2 months old. stop the nonsense. the reason ducati was in the postion it was in was BECAUSE of rossi now you think he would have won on the bike already. hahaha

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So when Gigi took over and spoke about how the Ducati GP team and Ducati factory weren't communicating very well that was because of Rossi? It's your belief that Ducati's GP riders are responsible for how the company operates?

Stoner struggled on the 2010 Desmo and didn't even get a win until the 13th race of the season. He was constantly telling Ducati the bike was crap and what exactly did Ducati do to fix it? Still Rossi's fault? Ducati was very stubborn and made a lot of mistakes. There is no RIDER to point the finger at, it was Ducati's own screw up and no Rossi or Burgess could bail them out. Stoner likely would have had even less success in 2011 if he stayed with Ducati as Honda and Yamaha continued to get stronger.

Stoner is has a lot of talent, winning on the 2010 Desmo, then going to a completely different bike and win the title in 2011.

In the opening race this year at Qatar, where the long straight gave Ducati the biggest advantage, and running at 24l fuel, Dovi should've took home 1st against Rossi. Can Stoner win on the Duc GP15? I think absolutely!

wsbk and motogp are apple and oranges.


I think the success had this year by ducati is partly due to the development direction rossi gave them . I think they were moving too slow for rossi .

and it is a v4 so not relevant to the death of the ltwin

IMO wsbk is mostly about the rider more so than motogp , because the bikes are so much closer

first yes it was rossi fault with the previous ducatis. him and jeremy continuing to change the frame for more or less flex. he couldnt adapt to the bike he needs a bike for him. he couldnt develop the bike and everything being equal could barely beat nicky. just remember all you rossi worshipers how many wins the so called goat had on the ducati. thats right 0. so how does anyone figure that he would have won on the gp15 just because dovi is doing well on it. he has 2 wins on the m1 this year and 5 total wins in the last 5 years all on the yamaha