the death of the panigale?

Macattack said:

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but,,,,

Why does everyone seem to blame the bike?

are we saying that chaz Davies is in the same category as

Carl Fogerty ?

Troy baylis ?

Checa?

IMO sykes is a champion and would win on any of the bike mfgrs He is friggin fast.

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Rossi is a champion and couldn't do .... on a Duc..

slickwill said:

Ducati need a four-cylinder to beat Kawasaki | Inside superbike

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What a load of rubbish.

sexparty said:

What a load of rubbish.

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I agree.. +1

Exactly which part is rubbish? The Panigale is 1 for 64 in WSBK... clearly something needs to be done. Kawasaki is dominating and they're running more restricted bikes this year. If WSBK goes back to full spec superbikes the I4s will get their trick electronics back and the gap between the Ducs will be even bigger.

Ducati clearly has the expertise to build a kickass V4. I hope they do it.

Ducati needs more talent in SBK.

Power delivery too abrupt? Haha. Twins have great traction exiting turns. Twins are kinda like "big-bang" engines and the crossplane R1. This is setup and programming errors. Last I checked, the Kaw is dropping two cylinders in the turns to smooth things out. Going to a 4 would be for power only, not smooth, or ride ability. Kaw is beating them, no contest there, but it's not a simple as drop a 4 in. Suspension setup is key, and Kaw's technicians have everyone beat pretty well for a while, not just Ducati. IMO, watching SBK, the 1199 is doing fine. Winning? No. But you can't win everything all the time. Especially with mediocre riders.

It's not Rossi's or Stoners fault for Ducati's previous woes. Ducati's engineers would not listen to their own racers and technicians. They had no one with the panache to grab their attention to listen and change. They weren't about to listen to racer boys or lowly mechanics. Gigi was hired, because they respect him, and would take his advice. They did, and now they're bettoer for it.

Ducati's previous stubbornness is well documented.

Ducati's riders suck? Lol, put Chaz and Davide on a factory 10R and you'd see a similar transformation like Rea switching from Honda to Kawasaki.

Buliwyf said:

Ducati needs more talent in SBK.

[...] IMO, watching SBK, the 1199 is doing fine. Winning? No. But you can't win everything all the time. Especially with mediocre riders.

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and so forth...

Although, like Eleven99, I do believe Davies and Giugliano are talented enough to compete for a championship on a properly sorted bike.

I will probably buy a V4 Ducati, however I will also be in the camp that waits until the second version whatever its called (SP, SPS, EVO, ULTRA, MEGA, AMARE) so that it's fairly sorted. While a V4 isnt entirely new to Ducati, on a wide production scale with cheaper numbers, it is.

Eleven 99 said:

Ducati's riders suck? Lol, put Chaz and Davide on a factory 10R and you'd see a similar transformation like Rea switching from Honda to Kawasaki.

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need I remind you that Honda is an I4 like the kawasaki.

so which is it ducati needs to switch to 4cyl and honda is not terrible or do honda and ducati suck and kawasaki makes the best bikes .

then why are Rossi and stoner always brought into this they rode a L or v4 in a totally different type of racing. non production.

Chaz doesn't suck but he is a 2nd place rider. He might get better he may improve he may become the next big winner .
but I don't get it when honda doesn't win no one blames the engine configuration
when aprilia doesn't win no one blames the engine configuration
when suzuki doesnt win no one blames the engine configuration
when kawasaki wins it is superior engine configuration.
when ducati doesn't win it is because it is a twin
when ducati wins it because it is the ducati cup and the twin is an unfair advantage.

It seems to me this year the field has limited depth in talent unlike it has been in the past and imo that is why guys like rea and sykes are cleaning house .
also the kawasaki team (not the bike) has their .... together.

Macattack said:

need I remind you that Honda is an I4 like the kawasaki.

so which is it ducati needs to switch to 4cyl and honda is not terrible or do honda and ducati suck and kawasaki makes the best bikes .

then why are Rossi and stoner always brought into this they rode a L or v4 in a totally different type of racing. non production.

Chaz doesn't suck but he is a 2nd place rider. He might get better he may improve he may become the next big winner .
but I don't get it when honda doesn't win no one blames the engine configuration
when aprilia doesn't win no one blames the engine configuration
when suzuki doesnt win no one blames the engine configuration
when kawasaki wins it is superior engine configuration.
when ducati doesn't win it is because it is a twin
when ducati wins it because it is the ducati cup and the twin is an unfair advantage.

It seems to me this year the field has limited depth in talent unlike it has been in the past and imo that is why guys like rea and sykes are cleaning house .
also the kawasaki team (not the bike) has their .... together.

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I think it's a little harsh to call Chaz a second place rider. He rides the panigale to the limits and beyond if you know what your watching. He is a clean rider I will say, meaning he won't stuff anyone in the corners, even his rivals. He's the only one in three years to put that bike at the top of the rostrum, so go easy on him.

I will agree that the field is a little thin right now. But moto GP should sort that out soon enough.

slow jamz said:

Rossi is a champion and couldn't do .... on a Duc..

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Rossi didn't ride wsbk the argument is apples and oranges.(1) stoner did ride the bike well rossi couldn't 2 the argument is about engine configuration. and the bike rossi rode was a 4cyl .(3) so totally different type of racing and series . not at all the same thing as wsbk.
the rossi argument just proves there is way more to winning a race than just one person or just the bike.

why does everyone try to mix valentino rossi's failure at ducati motogp into a discussion about the engine configuration of the panigale?
am I missing something ?

Thamer said:

I think it's a little harsh to call Chaz a second place rider. He rides the panigale to the limits and beyond if you know what your watching. He is a clean rider I will say, meaning he won't stuff anyone in the corners, even his rivals. He's the only one in three years to put that bike at the top of the rostrum, so go easy on him.

I will agree that the field is a little thin right now. But moto GP should sort that out soon enough.

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fair enough but I was referring to his history and where IMO he would be on say a honda or an aprilia if you were to guess based on his history .

for example what would you expect him to place? Is he a carl fogarty is he a scott Russell? I watched Chaz race ama and was blown away at his talent unbelievable . but for what ever reason this did not pan out.
some riders are like an alien - brilliant unstoppable for a long time . others seem to have all the talent and boom they become lost in the pac. chaz seems to be one of the people who have the talent but never get the first place . I hope Chaz starts winning . The things I've seen him do on a bike (backing it in - rear wheel steering etc etc. ) are amazing . IMO he is just not leaps and bounds above the guys competing for first place and he is sure trying . I just can't blame the bike.

Macattack said:

need I remind you that Honda is an I4 like the kawasaki.

so which is it ducati needs to switch to 4cyl and honda is not terrible or do honda and ducati suck and kawasaki makes the best bikes .

then why are Rossi and stoner always brought into this they rode a L or v4 in a totally different type of racing. non production.

Chaz doesn't suck but he is a 2nd place rider. He might get better he may improve he may become the next big winner .
but I don't get it when honda doesn't win no one blames the engine configuration
when aprilia doesn't win no one blames the engine configuration
when suzuki doesnt win no one blames the engine configuration
when kawasaki wins it is superior engine configuration.
when ducati doesn't win it is because it is a twin
when ducati wins it because it is the ducati cup and the twin is an unfair advantage.

It seems to me this year the field has limited depth in talent unlike it has been in the past and imo that is why guys like rea and sykes are cleaning house .
also the kawasaki team (not the bike) has their .... together.

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Yes, Honda's WSBK bike sucks compared to the 10R. The Honda is behind the Panigale... it's old and I don't think Honda is investing much into it. The problem with the Honda is obviously not the engine configuration, but lack of development and support.

I believe if you put Rea on the Panigale and Chaz on the 10R for the 2nd half of the season Chaz would catch Rea in points. The Panigale is not an easy bike to ride and I think it would take Rea a long time to get comfortable on it.

It's harsh to say Chaz is a 2nd place rider when he probably has to ride the Panigale harder to get a 2nd place than Rea has to push the 10R to WIN!

Kawasaki isn't winning just because they have an I4. When they quit MotoGP their resources all went to WSBK and developing the best Japanese superbike. Kawasaki's "failed" effort in GP really paid off when it came to applying what they learned into a superbike platform.

Eleven 99 said:

Exactly which part is rubbish? The Panigale is 1 for 64 in WSBK... clearly something needs to be done. Kawasaki is dominating and they're running more restricted bikes this year. If WSBK goes back to full spec superbikes the I4s will get their trick electronics back and the gap between the Ducs will be even bigger.

Ducati clearly has the expertise to build a kickass V4. I hope they do it.

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1 in 64 is not a fair evaluation of the bike...Ducati riders have been plagued with injuries (checa the beginning of the '13 season I think), Davide at the beginning of this year...those first 2 years were all development. Hence why we see a stark improvement this year. Look at someone like Xavi and Troy who can come in after years of not riding and get top 10 finishes consistently! I think the biggest issue as others have pointed out, is that the talent pool is just not like it was ... the two reigning champs are no where to be seen

Eleven 99 said:

Ducati's riders suck? Lol, put Chaz and Davide on a factory 10R and you'd see a similar transformation like Rea switching from Honda to Kawasaki.

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I still don't think they would beat Rea and Sykes...the standings would probably be the same...

Macattack said:

need I remind you that Honda is an I4 like the kawasaki.

so which is it ducati needs to switch to 4cyl and honda is not terrible or do honda and ducati suck and kawasaki makes the best bikes .

then why are Rossi and stoner always brought into this they rode a L or v4 in a totally different type of racing. non production.

Chaz doesn't suck but he is a 2nd place rider. He might get better he may improve he may become the next big winner .
It seems to me this year the field has limited depth in talent unlike it has been in the past and imo that is why guys like rea and sykes are cleaning house .
also the kawasaki team (not the bike) has their .... together.

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Chaz is still relatively young..he's improving each year...that's all anyone can ask for. I think Davide didn't get injured, we would have seen more Ducati podiums this year for sure. Even with his injury, he's qualifying well, and getting top 5-6 finishes

One thing a lot of us forgetting is that Gigi probably hasn't done much development for the Pani. He can't really develop two bikes at the same time. Especially since they're actually pretty different. We may not see any big changes for the pani till next year since the GP development can "slowed" down now.
I think ducati will exhaust all Twin options before they look at a V4...but some more aggressive riders definitely wouldn't hurt either. Davide and Chaz are great riders though

Be good to see Ducati build another V4, but Ducati is about building Twins. It's in their DNA. they'll find a way to make it work they always do.

I'm wondering if Ducati starts building V4's will they adopt 4 interlocking rings as a logo? I think it would be a neat idea.

Ouch! Please dont even joke about it.

The Kawasaki is just a beast of a bike with a conventional frame. Looks like they added even better balance and some usable power from last year: Kawasaki World Superbike ZX-10R Racer Test | Green is the New Gold | Sport Rider

Wonder what the race leader in the Isle of Mann TT will have?

If they want to win they have to go to V4. The V4s and I4s just keep getting stronger - the twin is at the end of its development curve

Eleven 99 said:

Exactly which part is rubbish? The Panigale is 1 for 64 in WSBK... clearly something needs to be done. Kawasaki is dominating and they're running more restricted bikes this year. If WSBK goes back to full spec superbikes the I4s will get their trick electronics back and the gap between the Ducs will be even bigger.

Ducati clearly has the expertise to build a kickass V4. I hope they do it.

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The bike and it's motor is fine, it has it's strengths and weaknesses like everything else.

Kawasaki clearly has the better team, that's what dominating. The ZX10R they use as a starting point is a smaller part of that and the motor even smaller.