the death of the panigale?

sexparty said:

The bike and it's motor is fine, it has it's strengths and weaknesses like everything else.

Kawasaki clearly has the better team, that's what dominating. The ZX10R they use as a starting point is a smaller part of that and the motor even smaller.

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How can the bike Kawasaki developed only be a small part of their success? Are you suggesting that if you did a personnel swap with Kawasaki and Ducati, Ducati would dominate for the remainder of the season?


Does anyone think Kawasaki would still be successful if the 10R was a v-twin (frameless design and single sided swingarm could also be considered)?

I would be very curious to hear what happens when someone fits the Pierobon dual sided swingarm to a Panigale. Those guys didn't develop that without a reason.

Eleven 99 said:

How can the bike Kawasaki developed only be a small part of their success? Are you suggesting that if you did a personnel swap with Kawasaki and Ducati, Ducati would dominate for the remainder of the season?


Does anyone think Kawasaki would still be successful if the 10R was a v-twin (frameless design and single sided swingarm could also be considered)?

Click to expand...

Maybe.

Racing at the highest level is a complex puzzle. It used to be, that anyone with a better puzzle piece in any one spot could have a serious advantage. But aside from Factory Team $$$$$$, most of those advantages are all used up and offer little gain.

Now something as simple as a team that "gets it" can make an enormous difference. The catch is, that team isn't familiar with the Ducati like they are the ZX10r. So they might stink completely if they traded places.

When a team is hot, and they have a bike that reflects their abilities, they're going to be up front every race. Sometimes a perfectly good car or bike, is off a hair, and the team hasn't figured it out, and they're stuck in the back of the pack. That's racing.

Look at McLaren in F1. They have every single ingredient to be on the podium. But it's not working out, it'll take all of this season, and a portion of next season for them to be competitive again.

It's so much more than bike and rider now. A rear shock that takes 20 minutes more to change than the competition, can ruin and entire race weekend. Everyone's racing in today's racing. Even the truck drivers. Every minute counts. It's that close.

shakazulu12 said:

I would be very curious to hear what happens when someone fits the Pierobon dual sided swingarm to a Panigale. Those guys didn't develop that without a reason.

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These are the places where we might see change in the "R" version of the next pani...
It's already been proven that the SSSA is not beneficial to the bike or racing...that's whey they abandoned it with the 999 series. It's heavier, costlier, and probably gives them less adjustability with flex n such, compared to a conventional swing arm...

I would not be surprised if we saw a small change like that be applied to the next "R" racing version of the pani...before a frame is added or the engine config changes...

I always thought that the SSSA would be easier to flex tune. Unless it's too flexible?

Buliwyf said:

I always thought that the SSSA would be easier to flex tune. Unless it's too flexible?

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Way more difficult as the forces go in all kinds of funky directions. Not as big a deal on a middleweight, but with the power the Panigale puts out, it's a problem. The factory has gone through tons of swingarm designs in the WSBK effort.

The rules of the series will dictate where the factory goes.

Fairings over the front axle were forbidden. Weight vs. HP has been an issue. 2 vs. 4 cylinder has been an issue.

The cat and mouse game of displacement was Ducati's drama in the 1980's and 1990's. DORNA got the rules changed due to this condition. Foggy did quite good under the modified rules.

What comes next as far as displacement goes and power to weight will be interesting.

The fact that IL4 engines continue to make power in better ways will certainly be a determining factor IMHO.

Look farther down the line in WSBK to the privateer teams and look at World Superstock where 5 of the top 10 current series leaders are on a Ducati. That's a better picture of the actual base bike platform than the top WSBK teams are. At the SBK level, the riders and electronics (not stock, so irrelevant to the production bike) are the difference between winners and losers, engine configuration is not the key there.

Eleven 99 said:

How can the bike Kawasaki developed only be a small part of their success? Are you suggesting that if you did a personnel swap with Kawasaki and Ducati, Ducati would dominate for the remainder of the season?

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The team and how good it is, is everything. The team builds the bike and transforms it from a street bike into a race bike. The ZX10R is the canvas and a great starting point but comparing that starting point to every other starting point on the market (all other superbikes), it's hardly the outright and undisputed best, or as good compared to the competition as the current WSBK standings suggest. Last time I checked their wasn't a Kawasaki in the top 5 of the superstock standings.

If it was as good as some suggest, it would be the undisputed best superbike in every and any shootout since it's release, it would be dominating superstock which it isn't and it would be all aspiring racers were riding. If you had a ZX10R you would simply have no competition. Which simply isn't the case.

The Kawasaki ZX10R isn't winning WSBK. Rea and his ZX10R race bike are. Rea's team is obviously aware of what he needs from his bike to be able to ride at this pace he is capable of, with whatever his style and needs are and are capable of identifying this every race and getting him what he needs. Whether it be electronics, suspension, power, braking, his technique, fitness or a combination of all of them. We don't know, we aren't in that garage seeing what's going on.

But what we do know is clearly that team knows what it's doing, works well together and is better right now than any other team at rolling out a bike that is exactly what Rea needs every race. Whatever that preperation is.

We are all aware of the reputation Ducati engineers have. For all we know they may not be willing to modify anything to suit the riders they have (the rider must adapt to the bike instead of the other way around) which could be holding them back, where as Kawasaki may be all about adapting or developing packages for the riders, to give them exactly what their style dictates and needs are and that's where the difference lies. We don't know.

That's what I meant by the starting point, the ZX10R street bike, being a smaller piece of the overall puzzle and the team being the biggest and most important part.

If the team is what's holding Ducati back from success then yes, changes would improve the teams chance of winning. Davies for all we know could be on the best bike with the best team but have mental battles (depression or anxiety) and personal stuff, or politics holding him back, we don't know and quite frankly it doesn't matter. But saying an IL4 will suddenly make Ducati win or have a better chance of winning like the author did is just stupid.

At 742am here that was way to advanced for me Sexparty. Well said.

sexparty said:

The team and how good it is, is everything. The team builds the bike and transforms it from a street bike into a race bike. The ZX10R is the canvas and a great starting point but comparing that starting point to every other starting point on the market (all other superbikes), it's hardly the outright and undisputed best, or as good compared to the competition as the current WSBK standings suggest. Last time I checked their wasn't a Kawasaki in the top 5 of the superstock standings.

If it was as good as some suggest, it would be the undisputed best superbike in every and any shootout since it's release, it would be dominating superstock which it isn't and it would be all aspiring racers were riding. If you had a ZX10R you would simply have no competition. Which simply isn't the case.

The Kawasaki ZX10R isn't winning WSBK. Rea and his ZX10R race bike are. Rea's team is obviously aware of what he needs from his bike to be able to ride at this pace he is capable of, with whatever his style and needs are and are capable of identifying this every race and getting him what he needs. Whether it be electronics, suspension, power, braking, his technique, fitness or a combination of all of them. We don't know, we aren't in that garage seeing what's going on.

But what we do know is clearly that team knows what it's doing, works well together and is better right now than any other team at rolling out a bike that is exactly what Rea needs every race. Whatever that preperation is.

We are all aware of the reputation Ducati engineers have. For all we know they may not be willing to modify anything to suit the riders they have (the rider must adapt to the bike instead of the other way around) which could be holding them back, where as Kawasaki may be all about adapting or developing packages for the riders, to give them exactly what their style dictates and needs are and that's where the difference lies. We don't know.

That's what I meant by the starting point, the ZX10R street bike, being a smaller piece of the overall puzzle and the team being the biggest and most important part.

If the team is what's holding Ducati back from success then yes, changes would improve the teams chance of winning. Davies for all we know could be on the best bike with the best team but have mental battles (depression or anxiety) and personal stuff, or politics holding him back, we don't know and quite frankly it doesn't matter. But saying an IL4 will suddenly make Ducati win or have a better chance of winning like the author did is just stupid.

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I was never referring to a 10R in street trim because I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion. In street trim the bike makes a lot of compromises to appeal to a broad range of riders and environments.

The 10R has done just fine in superstock. In 2013 Jérémy Guarnoni was 3rd in FIM Superstock 1000 on a 10R and 2014 saw Lorenzo Savadori take 2nd place. David Salom on a 10R beat out Canepa on the Pani last year to take the Evo championship. The 10R has also performed great in road racing and endurance racing with wins in each.

Yes, a racing team is very important, but the manufacturer has to provide them with a bike (a canvas) that is capable of being developed into a winning machine. The question is has Ducati provided their racing team with a bike that's capable of being developed into a championship winning machine? Would changes from Ducati such as a conventional swingarm, twin-spar frame, or V4 engine be more beneficial than different personnel in the Aruba.it - Ducati Superbike Team garage?

sexparty said:

If it was as good as some suggest, it would be the undisputed best superbike in every and any shootout since it's release, .

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Very true...
let us not forget how the BMW dominated EVERY shootout in every magazine...And that did not translate into wins in the WSBK. Even with the factory support and well known riders...they were not able to compete consistently.

Eleven 99 said:

I was never referring to a 10R in street trim because I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion.

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I think it's relevant, because the street bike is the starting point for all of these teams. They're not allowed to make Chassis/frame changes correct? So the chassis on the street bike is very important to get right for the racing. Even more so now because the engine bottom end has change restrictions as well...The street bike's quality and configuration has become ever so important as a starting point

Besides Rea and Sykes, are there even any other Kaw on the WSBK grid?

krissrock said:

Very true...
let us not forget how the BMW dominated EVERY shootout in every magazine...And that did not translate into wins in the WSBK. Even with the factory support and well known riders...they were not able to compete consistently.



I think it's relevant, because the street bike is the starting point for all of these teams. They're not allowed to make Chassis/frame changes correct? So the chassis on the street bike is very important to get right for the racing. Even more so now because the engine bottom end has change restrictions as well...The street bike's quality and configuration has become ever so important as a starting point

Besides Rea and Sykes, are there even any other Kaw on the WSBK grid?

Click to expand...

I agree, it's very important to get the chassis right for racing.

The Kaw dominates the WSBK grid. I count 7 Ninjas & 5 Panigales.

Donington results

Race 1

1. Tom Sykes GBR Kawasaki Racing ZX-10R 23 laps
2. Jonathan Rea GBR Kawasaki Racing ZX-10R +3.743s
3. Chaz Davies GBR Aruba.it Racing Ducati 1199R +15.140s
4. Leon Haslam GBR Red Devils Roma Aprilia RSV4 +18.304s
5. Ayrton Badovini ITA BMW Italia S1000RR +20.362s
6. Alex Lowes GBR Voltcom Crescent Suzuki GSX-R1000 +20.848s
7. Jordi Torres ESP Red Devils Roma Aprilia RSV4 +21.807s
8. Sylvain Guintoli FRA PATA Honda CBR1000RR +24.346s
9. Leon Camier GBR MV Agusta F4 RR +30.570s
10. David Salom ESP Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R +39.074s
11. Leandro Mercado ARG Barni Ducati 1199R +44.023s
12. Nicolas Terol ESP Althea Racing Ducati 1199R +46.925s
13. Roman Ramos ESP GO Eleven Kawasaki ZX-10R +50.871s
14. Randy de Puniet FRA Voltcom Crescent Suzuki GSX-R1000 +66.993s
15. Niccolo Canepa ITA Grillini Kawasaki ZX-10R +69.883s
16. Christophe Ponsson FRA Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R +86.098s
17. Davide Giugliano ITA Aruba.it Racing Ducati 1199R +1 lap
18. Gabor Rizmayer HUN Team Toth BMW S1000RR +1 lap
19. Imre Toth HUN Team Toth BMW S1000RR +1 lap

Did not finish
20. Santiago Barragan ESP Grillini Kawasaki ZX-10R 17 laps
21. Matteo Baiocco ITA Althea Ducati 1199R 13 laps

Black flagged
22. Michael van der Mark NED PATA Honda CBR1000RR 8 laps




Race 2

1. Tom Sykes GBR Kawasaki Racing ZX-10R 23 laps
2. Jonathan Rea GBR Kawasaki Racing ZX-10R +9.772s
3. Chaz Davies GBR Aruba.it Racing Ducati 1199R +12.304s
4. Leon Haslam GBR Red Devils Roma Aprilia RSV4 +15.601s
5. Davide Giugliano ITA Aruba.it Racing Ducati 1199R +15.779s
6. Alex Lowes GBR Voltcom Crescent Suzuki GSX-R1000 +23.136s
7. Jordi Torres ESP Red Devils Roma Aprilia RSV4 +26.674s
8. Sylvain Guintoli FRA PATA Honda CBR1000RR +27.206s
9. Ayrton Badovini ITA BMW Italia S1000RR +31.469s
10. Matteo Baiocco ITA Althea Ducati 1199R +34.659s
11. Roman Ramos ESP GO Eleven Kawasaki ZX-10R +36.298s
12. David Salom ESP Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R +36.682s
13. Leandro Mercado ARG Barni Ducati 1199R +77.739s
14. Randy de Puniet FRA Voltcom Crescent Suzuki GSX-R1000 +84.434s
15. Santiago Barragan ESP Grillini Kawasaki ZX-10R +84.601s
16. Gabor Rizmayer HUN Team Toth BMW S1000RR +1 lap
17. Imre Toth HUN Team Toth BMW S1000RR +1 lap

Did not finish
18. Christophe Ponsson FRA Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R 7 laps
19. Nicolas Terol ESP Althea Racing Ducati 1199R 6 laps
20. Niccolo Canepa ITA Grillini Kawasaki ZX-10R 4 laps
21. Michael van der Mark NED PATA Honda CBR1000RR 4 laps
22. Leon Camier GBR MV Agusta F4 RR 3 laps

krissrock said:

Very true...
let us not forget how the BMW dominated EVERY shootout in every magazine...And that did not translate into wins in the WSBK. Even with the factory support and well known riders...they were not able to compete consistently.



I think it's relevant, because the street bike is the starting point for all of these teams. They're not allowed to make Chassis/frame changes correct? So the chassis on the street bike is very important to get right for the racing. Even more so now because the engine bottom end has change restrictions as well...The street bike's quality and configuration has become ever so important as a starting point

Besides Rea and Sykes, are there even any other Kaw on the WSBK grid?

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure they can change triple clamps, forks (obviously), swing arm.. Dunno about the frame but you can be sure its heavily gusseted, as least historically speaking they have been.. So, while it bears a resemblance to a street bike in most ways it def not.. Two completely different beasts... SSTK would be a better place to look for a comparison. Maybe next year we will be able to see some different makes in the MotoAmerica Superstock 1000 class...
From the site:
• Engine: 750 to 1000cc 3- and 4-cylinder engines/850 to 1200cc 2-cylinder engines; stock airbox/fuel-injection system; stock cylinder head, pistons, connecting rods, and crankshaft; standard transmission; 3000 euros (3750 with data-logging) for electronic “Superstock 1000 Kit System”

• Chassis: standard frame and swingarm; stock triple-clamps and fork (may be modified with parts from eligible equipment list); shock may be replaced; stock linkage; electronic suspension permitted if standard on homologated model; brake system may be replaced (steel discs); stock wheels; no titanium fasteners; 374-lb. minimum weight

• Tires: Dunlop K448 front/K449 rear slicks (8 fronts, 10 rears per competitor per race weekend)

• Equivalent international class: FIM Superstock 1000

Donington SuperStock results:

1. Lorenzo Savadori ITA Nuova M2 Racing Aprilia RSV4 1000 15 laps
2. Roberto Tamburini ITA Team MotoxRacing BMW S1000 RR +2.893s
3. Raffaele De Rosa ITA Althea Racing Ducati 1199 Panigale +5.242s
4. Jeremy Guarnoni FRA Team Trasimeno Yamaha YZF R1 +10.612s
5. Kev Coghlan GBR MRS Yamaha Yamaha YZF R1 +10.783s
6. Ondrej Jezek CZE Triple-M by Barni Ducati 1199 Panigale R +16.531s
7. Kevin Calia ITA Nuova M2 Racing Aprilia RSV4 1000 +18.799s
8. Fabio Massei ITA EAB Racing Team Ducati 1199 Panigale R +23.831s
9. Luca Salvadori ITA Althea Racing Ducati 1199 Panigale +29.153s
10. Tony Coveña NED EAB Racing Team Ducati 1199 Panigale R +29.222s
11. Christoffer Bergman SWE MG Competition Yamaha YZF R1 +32.839s
12. Bryan Staring AUS Team Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R +33.657s
13. Marc Moser GER Triple-M by Barni Ducati 1199 Panigale R +34.244s
14. Luca Marconi ITA Yamaha YZF R1 +34.348s
15. Sebastien Suchet SUI Team BSR Kawasaki ZX-10R +41.582s
16. Victor Cox GBR Team Suzuki Europe Suzuki GSX-R1000 +44.283s
17. Wayne Tessels NED Team Suzuki Europe GSX-R1000 +44.378s
18. Michael Savary SUI Team18 Delcamp Energie Kawasaki ZX-10R +48.554s
19. Sylvain Barrier FRA G.M Racing Yamaha YZF R1 +54.379s
20. Francesco Cavalli ITA Clasitaly Kawasaki ZX-10R +55.413s
21. Kevin Valk NED MTM / HS Kawasaki ZX-10R +60.582s
22. Greg Gildenhuys RSA TR.Corse BMW S1000 RR +63.517s
23. Riccardo Cecchini ITA Team Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R +63.627s
24. Federico Sanchioni ITA Clasitaly Kawasaki ZX-10R +70.040s
25. Randy Pagaud FRA Team OGP Kawasaki ZX-10R +75.627s
26. Eric Vionnet SUI Motos Vionnet BMW S1000 RR +75.920s
27. Mathieu Dumas FRA Team OGP Kawasaki ZX-10R +76.438s
28. Mathieu Gines FRA MRS Yamaha ZXF1 R1 +86.070s

Yes, theres been talk of rider ability but still.. Lonley Ol Kawi down there in 12th...

It was good to see the Ducati Panigale grab a double win this weekend with Davis at Laguna Seca. The thing is that at least in my mind it is too little too late. Glad they are pulling together some wins but I think the Panigale model although very beautiful has been less of a success on the track as Ducati would have hoped. Ducati have a long storied tradition. But of all the tradition the one that matters most is the tradition of winning. The Panigale has not been the dominate race winner we all had hoped it would be when debuted. Until now we have seen a singular win in WSBK, the world stage where Ducati has the most championships. To me the tradition Ducati needs to address is the tradition of winning. As much as I love a Twin, it is getting to the point where it isn't the way to go anymore. If Ducati wants to continue its winning tradition they are going to need to get down to making that V4 superbike entry and relegate the twins to their other lines. But for true performance and an ability to dominate again I would not doubt that we see some form of the Desmosedici engine in a superbike to gain a foothold again on the championship. One thing for sure is that their v4 is a beast and that it would be a motor on par with any of the others in WSBK. I more than anything want to see them return to a weekend tradition of winning WSBK races. But I think we have seen the last Twin Ducati Superbike track weapon. On to the new tradition of winning again. Bring on the V4.

@rockgod01,

The big ? when discussing a bike winning or not, is the rider...

Which stellar rider has raced the Panigale? NONE

jdgun said:

@rockgod01,

The big ? when discussing a bike winning or not, is the rider...

Which stellar rider has raced the Panigale? NONE

Click to expand...

Which WSBK riders do you consider stellar since you don't seem to think very highly of Chaz and Davide?

the bikes seem pretty even to me. davies rea and sykes all seem about the same on speed . there is no one who is light years ahead in speed or talent in that group .
the way I read it wsbk was supposed to have its hp reigned in with the evo rules . the rules were not completely implemented and ducati got to start the year without the restrictors . it would be stupid of ducati to go apeshit crazy with hp the powers that be said point blank the restrictors would go back on if ducati started winning in dominant fashion.

At Laguna all top 10 riders within 1sec that is close, nobody has a big advantage at this point 1 brand might be better at 1 part of a curcuit V another buts it's all close right now, it all comes down to set up & rider

But this could be the last V twin Ducati SBK ? if they win too much the other teams will say the say they have to much advantage cc's etc if Ducati went V4 same playing field.
With Audi's influence I can see a merging tech VTT variable valve timing with the Desmo system

It will be interesting for sure what they do next. Gigi is likely to have a lot of influence on the next design. That said, enjoy the days of the epic superbikes from everyone. There isn't a sportbike on the market now IMHO.