Tuneboy Tuning Development

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MagicMike said:
Sorry, i should have specified, not using your files! Just the out of the box ones. Specifically the termi slip on no dbkiller trim.

I have made a few tweaks to your tune and cruise throttle map, and a few tweaks to 3 trim files to test out today.

Main changes are 0 5degrees increase in lower left 3 cells, and slight increase in throttle in 1st with tp at 0.

Side note, I'm surprised at some of the timing variations between same cells front to back.
Click to expand...

Following this up.

I think tonight I've found the issue with my stalling, and I think it's not TB related, just timing coincidence. I'm sure I have an issue with a failing or failed MAP sensor. I was re-flashing again this arvie and found one reading ~20 and one ~900 with the bike off. I've been reading @Disco 's other threads on his issues and the symptoms seem on the surface to be the same.

More investigation required. I'll send you a PM once I get my head around what I want to ask :)

Also, my TP% won't go any lower than 3. I've reset APS and TPS without change. Is this normal?
 
As to the % of throttle at idle, I can't recall the numbers I get, but it's definitely not 0%. I have a feeling it was high 2% so you might be fine. I can check closer to the end of the week.

I'll wait out on your MAP issue until you need some input, but hopefully it's something simple 🤞
 
Following up...

After being advised to update the microcode on the TB wifi to 7.9a (new release, issues with 7.9), my TB unit has bricked (IMO), directly after the upgrade. It ceased putting out a network to connect to. Since been sent back to Wayne, be interested to hear if anything comes of it, or if anyone else has any issues with the update.

Also, after putting in 2 new map sensors, the bike has improved greatly. Low speed is much better, and only 1 stall.
 
I'm now thinking of tuning and utilising the load tables. The standard Tuneboy FL table (% of fuel table used to load table) only uses the load table up to 1.8% throttle and 1896rpm then half load table and half fuel table up to 2.4% throttle and 2048rpm. The R tunes are all over the place.

TB does have the load tables fully populated, but I'm pretty sure the MAP sensor input will only go so far and then it will have switch to fuel table only. The hard part is figuring out the limits of the sensors in both vacuum and RPM.

Obviously messing around and then having no more input from the sensors could cause a lean condition so I really want to be sure if the limits before I go changing anything.

Has anyone tuned their bike using the MAP sensors and willing to share some insight? @DeussenEngines maybe?
 
Disco said:
I'm now thinking of tuning and utilising the load tables. The standard Tuneboy FL table (% of fuel table used to load table) only uses the load table up to 1.8% throttle and 1896rpm then half load table and half fuel table up to 2.4% throttle and 2048rpm. The R tunes are all over the place.

TB does have the load tables fully populated, but I'm pretty sure the MAP sensor input will only go so far and then it will have switch to fuel table only. The hard part is figuring out the limits of the sensors in both vacuum and RPM.

Obviously messing around and then having no more input from the sensors could cause a lean condition so I really want to be sure if the limits before I go changing anything.

Has anyone tuned their bike using the MAP sensors and willing to share some insight? @DeussenEngines maybe?
Click to expand...

MAP sensor based tuning ind Ducatis works only well in low rpm and load conditions. There is a strong impact from valve lash on the pressure signal measured from the MAP sensor and I would only use it in idle. The only motorcycle application that I know to fully rely on MAP signal for fuelling and Spark is the Eldor ECU used on MV Agusta.
 
Disco said:
I'm now thinking of tuning and utilising the load tables. The standard Tuneboy FL table (% of fuel table used to load table) only uses the load table up to 1.8% throttle and 1896rpm then half load table and half fuel table up to 2.4% throttle and 2048rpm. The R tunes are all over the place.

TB does have the load tables fully populated, but I'm pretty sure the MAP sensor input will only go so far and then it will have switch to fuel table only. The hard part is figuring out the limits of the sensors in both vacuum and RPM.

Obviously messing around and then having no more input from the sensors could cause a lean condition so I really want to be sure if the limits before I go changing anything.

Has anyone tuned their bike using the MAP sensors and willing to share some insight? @DeussenEngines maybe?
Click to expand...

At about 50% Throttle opening the MAP switches totally to TB position and ignores the MAP table. Be advised, however, that this may be at 50% Throttle Blade movement, not what you are inputting from the throttle hand. Logically, if you are inputting 100% throttle, and the throttle blade is only moving 40% at about 5000 rpm, then any fuel mapping of a TP of 100% would be ludicrously incorrect. I'm pretty sure that the Fuel Maps are dialed in to reflect how far the throttle blade is moving at whatever rpm the engine is running, which would explain the F/L tables ending at about 50% throttle postition, but still having a percentage of MAP/L input up to 40% at about 40% throttle position above 6000 rpm.

Attached files


 
.I've run the T/L Map with the TP only and leaving the MAP out of the loop. It was quite smooth, but I doubted that it was compensating for load changes below 10-20% due to wind and hills. This is the graph with 100% across the board for the TP only.:


 
Correction, since I couldn't Edit it in time. Above about 12% the Tune TL Map goes to 100% across the board, not 50% TP value. That's what I get for going off memory instead of looking things up to verify first. The Throttle Position factor on the left side starts very soft at the bottom of the chart, then is very coarse and aggressive toward the top. Same for the RPM across the top.
 
Hmmmm ... I was only thinking the MAP sensors would be used for low throttle (<10%) and less than 5000rpm.
 
Well, they are, but apparently slamming the throttle closed above 5K rpm causes problems, so they add some sort of Load feedback to assure there is still fuel mapping that is sensitive to engine vacuum. Overly lean mixture with the throttle closed causes backfires, which is why certain 'tunes' cause off-throttle popping from modified exhausts. Mine did it when I installed the new slip-on, so I richened things up a little to get rid of that annoying sound. It also probably helps with that first twitch of movement as you come off closed throttle at higher RPM, to assure the mixture is not overly lean, sort of like an accelerator shot from a carburetor. It only takes a tiny movement to get a shot of fuel, which helps with the transition. I'm sure there is an enrichenment Map that kicks in while the throttle is opened, but I haven't found it yet.
 
I have been surprised that I can't find an accelerator pump function. The Power Commander IV I had in a previous bike had it and was easy to set up.
 
Well, even if the MAP sensors are not effectively changing the fuel curve above 12% TP, that does not mean the computer is not watching them and the TPS for signals that indicate acceleration, or quick throttle opening, so that the mixture can be adjusted for such an event. I have seen AF and Lambda readings when cracking the throttle open that show a substantial enrichening of the mixture and exhaust, for a very short moment, making it evident that some sort of 'accelerator pump' function is taking place. It may not be adjustable, or it could be a factor of the ECM automatically taking 1-2 cells of higher rpm mixture during the transition period, then reverting to the currently applicable cell. Also, even though the engine is not changing rpm as quickly as your hand is twisting the throttle, going to the higher throttle setting Trim or Fuel Map, without any change in RPM, would tend to cover any lean-out. We think of the computer like a carburetor, but in one single revolution it can sense and change mixture cells for optimum mixture, whereas a Carburetor is a physical/vacuum operated set of fluid changes, in analog, so it has a lag for any gross changes in throttle position. If you move a Carburetor slowly, there's no need for an accelerator pump shot to cover the massive lean condition from WOT and lots of air, but the jets not flowing to keep up because of the mechanical/fluid nature of the device. Digital FI covers sudden throttle changes instantly, like in 1-2 revolutions. Carburetion probably takes 20-30 revolutions before the jets and fuel flow start to catch up. During rolI-on tuning, I still move the throttle slowly to the desired percentage, and give the ECU time to adjust to the new settings before releasing the bike to accelerate. The only thing have to worry about when I do that is the brake pads, which are brand new ceramics. Dyno tuners do the same thing, holding it back for a second or two, before allowing the run. Just a prudent practice, IMO.

In the end it depends on how the firmware operates, and the logic used for the Mapping and tuning, which I doubt we will ever be able to tinker with, which is probalby not a bad thing after all.
 
@Disco I found the below in Wayne's notes in reference to when the MAP tables are used versus the TP tables:

"You should not need to adjust the MAP tables as the base program in the ECU has been changed to restrict the manifold pressure mapping to the area from 0 to 2.5% throttle up to 5000 RPM."

So I would think this means it uses the TP tables unless under these circumstances...?
 
Correct. TP and RPM are the biggest influencers for your mixture. It's basically a Speed-Density style of mapping, versus the systems that use Mass Airflow Sensors to actually measure the airflow, and even then the lack of MAP inputs make it closer to a Speed-Throttle only system, like a digitized old-style FE system from the late 60's. Think E-Jetronic or equivalent.
 
Sheikh said:
Correct. TP and RPM are the biggest influencers for your mixture. It's basically a Speed-Density style of mapping, versus the systems that use Mass Airflow Sensors to actually measure the airflow, and even then the lack of MAP inputs make it closer to a Speed-Throttle only system, like a digitized old-style FE system from the late 60's. Think E-Jetronic or equivalent.



Is this still true with OEM settings + o2 sensors & map or specifically with how the Tuneboy is operating?
Click to expand...
 
Standard O2 Sensors do not give you an AF ratio. They merely tell the ECU when the engine is Rich or Lean, outside the Stoichiometric range of about .35-.65VDC from the Sensor. The Ramp of voltage is very steep,making it difficlut to extrapolate an exact AF ratio with these sensors. Lambda or AF ratio sensors actually sniff the exhaust and compare the amount of hydrocarbons to oxygen, rather than read merely the Oxygen content of the gasses. They also have a much wider voltage and mixture range, From 0-5 VDC instead of .1-.9VDC with standard O2 sensors, and about 7:1-22:1 Mixture range instead of within the 12.5-14.5 range from a standard sensor. Tuneboy does away with O2 sensor inputs and uses those ports on the ECU for the Quickshifter input, Shift Light, or Cruise button input. The only way to get a true AF ratio is to use the external Innovate system and AF sensors, then feed the inputs into the Tuneboy program via the old O2 sensor plugs. The ECU is not capable of extrapolating mixture with wide-range AF or Lambda sensors, only the on/off reference voltages from a standard O2 sensor. So, you use the Innovate sensor and Computer interface to 'educate' the Fuel Map that the bikes ECU is using via the TuneBoy Fuel Trim Maps, save it, and load it into the ECU...instead of the ECU doing it in a dynamic fashion and automatically. Remember, when you are using the Fuel Trim Maps program from Tuneboy, the ECU in the bike is slaving it's fuel maps from the Computer, not from its dedicated internal Fuel maps. Once you disconnect the computer and Fuel Trim program from the ECU, it goes back to internal Mapping. This is why you save the modifed Map from the Trim Map program, after you have it properly 'adjusted', then re-flash the ECU with the modified Map and Trim files, so it can use it from it's internal ROM.
 
@Disco I finally had a chance to take the bike for a test ride with the new map is it was all good so far. Mid range felt better and slightly less twitchy in lower RPM's. Will do more testing but so far so good!
 
Speaking of 'less twitchy'. I have my max throttle in 1st gear set to 75%, with a commiserate change to all values below that, but it was still rather jerky or twitchy at the throttle values below about 30%. i went through mine yesterday and turned everything down in the lower range, flattened out the below-6000 rpm curve across the board, and tried it again. Much smoother and more predictable in 1st gear now. With all the exhaust and tuning changes I've been making the low-midrange throttle response is really enhanced, and in need of a bit more refinement. 2nd-6th aren't as twitchy, because they use a slightly different set of curves, but I'm going to address 2nd gear (max 90% throttle to keep the front tire down) to make it a little smoother as well. 3rd-6th use a common curve.
 
I've ended up with this. Combination of discos TP tables modified, timing syncing, and MAP/TP % mods to use more MAP down low.

I won't jinx anything and say I haven't had a stall for a number of weeks now. I'd load my trim file too, but I can't remember for the life of me which one I actually have installed, and I don't want to touch it again by map switching, as long as it's working :s

A trait it shows is increased rpm while wheelspeed is greater than 0 as the clutch switch disengages, which I've found really good in city traffic.
 

Attachments

  • Panigale1199_V207_CruiseAndTune_V6_7dTunetimingsyncandmapVTP-throttle smooth V2installed.zip
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