When your friends start crashing...

Cloner · Jul 8, 2013

What Zaster said.

I'd only add that in traffic always have an escape plan. A truck with Texas plates pulling a boat put me off the road on my way to the local hangout Sunday morning. Escape plan was the very wide left shoulder on I-40. It worked.

I won't say I've never put my foot in a door, but ego has to go when safety is concerned. Give ground and do what you can to let these oblivious idiots know you're there! When all else fails put a foot in a door or fender as a last resort....but brakes generally work better.

Pleasure riding with you Sunday, Zaster.

oalvarez · Jul 9, 2013

Stw said:
I have had 3 friends recently crash... Only one was riding with me before you guys make wise cracks..

But it makes me nervous and plays on my mind... I know what we do is risky and being reminded of this is no bad thing but damn I hate this...

So what exactly happened in each of their incidents, could either of them been avoided? Knowing what happened (the cause of) is as important as anything else as it helps teach all involved (and others) possibly what to do/not to do, next time.

Sorry to hear of your friend's mishaps.

WAfatboy · Jul 9, 2013

I've been riding for 25 years, I've had quite a few offs and I consider myself fortunate to be still riding today.

I rode to work today. On the way in I was pulling out of the on lane, crossed the first lane after a couple of head checks, head check again and start to cross again, utility vehicle in front slams on the anchors because someone's pulled in front of him and I only just manage to avoid his aluminium loading tray as I open the throttle.

On the way home tonight, heavy rain showers, dark, travel the 20km to home, about 1km from home turn off the main drag left hand on slip road then turning onto home stretch, someone has left a layer of sand all over the road which I can't see until I'm on it, and even with my cautious wet weather approach the back end slides but caught it easily thanks to TC.

I consider my mortality constantly but it doesn't stop me doing the things I love. Some words that ring true for me.

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

Dylan Thomas

Stw · Jul 9, 2013

oalvarez said:
So what exactly happened in each of their incidents, could either of them been avoided? Knowing what happened (the cause of) is as important as anything else as it helps teach all involved (and others) possibly what to do/not to do, next time.

Sorry to hear of your friend's mishaps.

To many variables and unknowns for me even to start to describe details.... These crashes were all seemingly rider error though... and these riders are all experienced and not squids at all.....

hsharpag91 · Jul 9, 2013

Wow...this thread brings up issues I have had since I got back on a sport bike. In my previous life (ie. young, dumb, and full of ....), I laid down both of my bikes, one of them twice, while riding on seemingly perfect twisty roads to test the limits of tire adhesion. In all cases, I entered the corner and leaned the back in and right past the apex hit a couple of pieces of gravel and sand twice with the front wheel. End of ride all three times but was able to pick up the bike and make it home.

Which brings me to the present, a wife, five kids, and tons of responsibilities. I know there are a ton of great, twisty roads through the mountains in Colorado but honestly I am more than a little hesitant pushing hard through them or even making my way out to experience them. There is a ton of gravel on the roads here and on the shoulders...all a car has to do is meander a little bit off track and that stuff gets put out in the middle of the road.

How do you guys not think about that every time you go through a corner...even at slow speed? My chicken strips are about an inch wide right now and I can guarantee you that the area close to that limit is not well worn. I was going through a corner last week...maybe 10 over the recommend speed and just caught a glimpse of the sand trail leaving a side road that entered right at the start of the curve. Bad experiences then paralyzed by thinking. I focused directly in front of my wheel, I stood the bike up just enough to not be on the edge but too much for my lane position and ventured into the oncoming lane....no one was there thank God. When I looked up finally I realized where I was and hit a mental block not knowing how to effectively get back to where I needed to be with a car headed towards me. I can still here the crunching of loose road surface on that highway. Nothing happened but it definitely made me think twice about the safety of riding on public, curvy roads with any type of speed.

I know what I did wrong (lost focus on my path). I don't have as much aggression as I used to have and maybe that's the issue but I am a little concerned that this fear is hampering my ability to ride corners better when I'm just trying to get more seat time. I have a ton of roads around me that are wide open with no side roads and I have seen 160mpg on my bike so I'm still having fun. Speed doesn't scare me. I know there are so many aspects of this bike that I haven't been able to thoroughly enjoy though and I want to know how the rest of you got/get past this.

jamesz3 · Jul 9, 2013

Go track-exclusive. Much safer and THE best use of these machines.

Stw · Jul 9, 2013

jamesz3 said:
Go track-exclusive. Much safer and THE best use of these machines.

Well yes way safer...no doubt...but riding on the street is also huge fun...and that's the quandary I have.... I would never give up street riding..

zvez · Jul 9, 2013

while track riding is a blast and I really enjoy it. It's only a tiny part of the enjoyment I get from riding. Just spent a few days in the W. VA mountains riding with friends on some wonderful roads, plus SUnday rides in my area, hell, I even enjoy the ride to work and home, specially when I take the long way home. Having fun with it all.

jamesz3 said:
Go track-exclusive. Much safer and THE best use of these machines.

oalvarez · Jul 9, 2013

hsharpag91 said:
There is a ton of gravel on the roads here and on the shoulders...

How do you guys not think about that every time you go through a corner...even at slow speed? My chicken strips are about an inch wide right now and I can guarantee you that the area close to that limit is not well worn..... Bad experiences then paralyzed by thinking......I focused directly in front of my wheel, I stood the bike up just enough to not be on the edge but too much for my lane position and ventured into the oncoming lane.....When I looked up finally I realized where I was and hit a mental block not knowing how to effectively get back to where I needed to be with a car headed towards me. ..... but I am a little concerned that this fear is hampering my ability to ride corners better when I'm just trying to get more seat time. .......I want to know how the rest of you got/get past this.

well, from reading your message, it appears as though the fear that you're experiencing is not just affecting your cornering but your overall riding (and ability to handle a situation), and in a negative way. it's good to have caution, to be mindful and the like, but if you know that there is a "ton of gravel" on the roads you ride, then either don't ride them or ride them at even a slower rate of speed giving you the necessary cushion of space/reaction time, until you have the skills to do otherwise. i'm surely not going to tell you what bike to ride, but there are other motorcycles out there that might allow you to handle situations like the ones you describe a bit more easily (upright/taller bikes, better view, different tires, wider bars, etc.). go slower, work on not fixating on targets, do avoidance maneuvers in a parking lot....focus more on having fun (and building up certain skills) and focus less on speed until you start to lose some of those hampering thoughts.

there's a lot we have to process when riding the open roads, giving oneself the space and time to do so is key.

WAfatboy · Jul 9, 2013

hsharpag91 said:
Wow...this thread brings up issues I have had since I got back on a sport bike. In my previous life (ie. young, dumb, and full of ....), I laid down both of my bikes, one of them twice, while riding on seemingly perfect twisty roads to test the limits of tire adhesion. In all cases, I entered the corner and leaned the back in and right past the apex hit a couple of pieces of gravel and sand twice with the front wheel. End of ride all three times but was able to pick up the bike and make it home.

Which brings me to the present, a wife, five kids, and tons of responsibilities. I know there are a ton of great, twisty roads through the mountains in Colorado but honestly I am more than a little hesitant pushing hard through them or even making my way out to experience them. There is a ton of gravel on the roads here and on the shoulders...all a car has to do is meander a little bit off track and that stuff gets put out in the middle of the road.

How do you guys not think about that every time you go through a corner...even at slow speed? My chicken strips are about an inch wide right now and I can guarantee you that the area close to that limit is not well worn. I was going through a corner last week...maybe 10 over the recommend speed and just caught a glimpse of the sand trail leaving a side road that entered right at the start of the curve. Bad experiences then paralyzed by thinking. I focused directly in front of my wheel, I stood the bike up just enough to not be on the edge but too much for my lane position and ventured into the oncoming lane....no one was there thank God. When I looked up finally I realized where I was and hit a mental block not knowing how to effectively get back to where I needed to be with a car headed towards me. I can still here the crunching of loose road surface on that highway. Nothing happened but it definitely made me think twice about the safety of riding on public, curvy roads with any type of speed.

I know what I did wrong (lost focus on my path). I don't have as much aggression as I used to have and maybe that's the issue but I am a little concerned that this fear is hampering my ability to ride corners better when I'm just trying to get more seat time. I have a ton of roads around me that are wide open with no side roads and I have seen 160mpg on my bike so I'm still having fun. Speed doesn't scare me. I know there are so many aspects of this bike that I haven't been able to thoroughly enjoy though and I want to know how the rest of you got/get past this.

I feel very much the same, with experiences and responsibilities and there are some roads that I actually find myself avoiding.

We have the same road surface issues, lots of gravel, sand and impromptu pot holes after rain especially - you never know what's round the corner. I've started to work on familiarising myself with as many routes as possible, riding them regularly to build up confidence.

hsharpag91 · Jul 9, 2013

I would guess that is part of it as well....familiarization....with the roads and the bike. I would think that could only go so far especially in the mountains since the terrain around the road is constantly shifting and you can never know what the car prior to you might have stirred up as he drifted a couple of wheels off.

I'm not a fear-monger or scared of my own shadow. I was just interested in how others on this forum think when they are out enjoying the roads. We all have different risk tolerances I get that but I also know that there are a good portion or majority of people on here that fall into the responsible adult category (wife, kids, career) and I would like to know how you become at peace with those possibilities. I'm not so sure I'm even concerned about physical bodily injury risk as much as I am about the insurance claim and resulting damage to this beautiful bike....I'm probably mixed up conceptually there. Hence why I am getting a dedicated used track bike.

Exclusive track use would be great if I could do that more than 5 or 6 times a year but even if I wanted to track this bike (which I do a 2-3 years down the road) I would not have nearly as much fun the other 98% of time just gazing at it in my garage or sitting outside the local starbucks, which is actually a 15 mile ride into town.

Kuroshio · Jul 9, 2013

My opinion will seem trite but it's true for me: I take all the precautions I want and accept whatever happens.

My job involves several dangers. Being a Verizon tech involves fall dangers, electrical hazards, chemical hazards, environmental hazards and sometimes a very real danger from the public. I've been trained to work as safe as possible and to mitigate / eliminate the dangers of the job. But as yall can see from the attached pic, chit happens. Pole tested clean and my ladder caught an electrical arc from the strand. So i can do everything right and still can get hurt or killed. I can't dwell on it and continue to do my job.

I view riding the same way. I prolly don't ride beyond 50% of my abilities on the streets. If I push beyond that, then I'm practicing something and it's not on the open rode. I'm sweating my ... off with this heat in my gear. And I still do TCLOCS (tho much is now subconscious than overt). Then it's stand up, shield down and enjoy the ride like it might be my last. I've had 2 friends have major accidents, gone down twice myself (mostly ego damage) and I don't dwell on it. If I did, I couldn't ride.

Like I sakd: trite but true

JeffD · Jul 9, 2013

@hsharpag91

That's an interesting question you ask, RE: what do you think about when riding. I don't have the gravel issue you describe on the roads I typically ride, but if you think about it, you're rolling the dice if you tip into a corner at a speed that doesn't allow you to see and react to any hazards on the other side, and successfully avoid a crash.

When fast road riding, that is in essence what almost everyone is doing. For me this is "playing the odds" as others have described, but when I really objectively look at it, there has to be some sticking-your-head-in-the-sand aspect. Addiction to two-wheel fun came to me when I was 18 years old, and my life is significantly different now 24 years later with the responsibilities you describe. A part of me wants to just give in and enjoy the same rush as when I was an immortal, care-free kid, but the calculating side envisions the consequences.

I make sure I'm insured to the hilt (life, disability, long-term care), where the best gear, and ride with every skill I've accumulated over 24 years racing and street riding. My biggest fear now are the ever-increasing distracted drivers. Telematics are increasingly important features and selling points, and I just think its going to get worse. I've been track-only in years past, and I may just go back to that if things go as bad as I think they may.

Be safe everyone!

Titaniumvalves · Jul 9, 2013

Bike and road condition
At times like these, i'm glad electronics or rider's aid like DTC,ABS,skyhook etc has made its way into motorcycles today.Not totally eliminating but reducing the risk of going down...

Bike and other road users
on the car part...there has also been much exploration on radar system where cars to cars and maybe motorcycles could commmunicate to each other of their pressence/velocity...etc..

Depending on what you believe,we merely mortal should be thankful to God for each new day....

we don't invent , we merely apply what already existed..and who created physics like frictional forces,centrifugal,enertia,pressure,combusion of fluids,boiling point...etc.?

hsharpag91 · Jul 10, 2013

@JeffD

Totally agree with the insurance aspect. Can't have enough.

I know you can't see and react to everything so having good vision....beyond your immediate vicinity allows you to create space and have an out. I think that is what bothered me most last week was that I lost perspective on my surroundings and turned a bad road situation into what might have been a head on collision. A lesson learned for sure.

WAfatboy · Jul 10, 2013

Today was a strange day.

I had a 10.30am meeting and I was running late and met up with my team 20 mins before. We were walking to the meeting when the phone rang, my GM told me that the client we were supposed to be meeting, who I have known for 7 years and who husband and child I also know, had passed away from Meningitis the night before.

This woman had beaten cancer twice, and just the week before was excitedly telling me that she had resigned and taken a new job that would be only 5 mins from home so she could spend more time with her 4 year old son. I actually told her I was impressed she bothered to work at all after all she had been through. She had kept working because she was earning more than her husband. We were drinking wine with her on Friday and today she is gone.

I'll leave you to ponder that but I am more resolved than ever to make time for my wife and family, charge the big waves and wrestle with big bikes until I am no longer able, and then I will probably take one last ride.

Stw · Jul 10, 2013

Thanks Waf...for sharing that story...makes you realise how fleeting life can be some times... I have lost friends due to cancer and I cannot tell you how sad that makes me...but quoting a line from a song.. " Dying is easy its living that scares me to death"..

Charliem90 · Jul 10, 2013

hsharpag91 said:
Exclusive track use would be great if I could do that more than 5 or 6 times a year but even if I wanted to track this bike (which I do a 2-3 years down the road) I would not have nearly as much fun the other 98% of time just gazing at it in my garage or sitting outside the local starbucks, which is actually a 15 mile ride into town.

Then go racing. 10-12 "track days" a year. And the rest of the time you'll be wrenching on it. No time for Starbucks or just "gazing". I'm guessing for every hour of time I spent on track I was wrenching another 4. Granted, I was racing a 250 gp machine which are seriously wrench intensive but all my friends reported similar. Repairing/Upgrading/replacing/etc. Always something to do.
You want real immersion with motorcycles in a relatively safe (compared to the street) environment, go racing.

hsharpag91 · Jul 10, 2013

I respect your opinion Charlie and suspect that I will try to reach that goal very soon. Not possible right now but hopefully I can get there. I really want to ride more in any fashion as it is something that gives me a good bit of pleasure. I have a dirt bike as well and my kids are starting to get into that (especially my 9 year old son who had to learn a lesson about riding out of control with a broken collarbone a couple of weeks back) so I do get off road motorcycling.

@WAFatboy....thanks for the poem and definitely something to live by. As your other story illustrated....fleeting at best so enjoy it any way you can.

Brad · Jul 10, 2013

Stw said:
To many variables and unknowns for me even to start to describe details.... These crashes were all seemingly rider error though... and these riders are all experienced and not squids at all.....

Interesting.
The person that used to teach advanced riding techniques around these parts, always used to say "if you come off or have an accident, it's all your fault"

The stuff he used to teach was related to safely avoiding any compromising situation.
Always leave a buffer and have an exit strategy, that's backed up with an appropriate automated reflex response.

All the people I know that are not with us today, without exception have F****d up. But we are all human and prone to mistakes.
It's about gaining enough experience and wisdom to keep it all together.

In some ways, we all start out with a big pile of luck and no experience, and we finish up with a big pile of experience until we potentially run out of luck.

When your friends start crashing...

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