DDA+ and GPS

[ex04053]

Sorry traction control and wheelie control sensors. Not ABS.

Also, the distance channel does look like it works, you just need to adjust the scale to make it visible for that journey. Currently I think the scale is set from 0km to whatever your max mileage is. Set the scale and it should show the mileage for that journey.

It takes a bit of setting up to get things right with the DDA+, GPS, and the DDA software, works ok once set, but like you said it could be a lot better!!

 

[RdashP]

Which bike are you using btw?

V4S

I have the same channels on my 1299 DDA+ and torque fast and torque slow are for ABS and wheelie control detection.

Thanks! Indeed strange naming and w.o. a proper usermanual how are we supposed to know? This is where fora like these step-in valuably!
Since I hardly push on the street & haven't tracked V4S yet, no wonder both remain flatliners for me!

Since they've been acquired by Danfoss, all their contacts have changed:
[email protected]

Aha!
I've first used [email protected] under prosa.com/Profile/Contacts, which bounced. Then forwarded to Alberto and Michela under /People 2x w.o. reply.
BTW Prosa site looks quite static and dated anyways.
Will try @danfoss ! tx again

 

[RdashP]

...It takes a bit of setting up to get things right with the DDA+, GPS, and the DDA software, works ok once set

Yep agree with you on baseline ok-ish of DDA functions.
Still a tad 'too basic', 'quite quirky' and w.o. solid Ducati-Prosa support for its premium price?

Also 'Unsure' though if our fellow DDA owners @1050er, @MotoX183, @Keith197, @thorny, etc. do too? hiha

 

[RdashP]

send you a PM. Appreciate

 

[mpita]

Ciao ragazzi,

I’m Marco, one of the SW developers that worked to the DDA Analysis software.
First of all apologies about the problem you faced in trying to contact us. The e-mail address for any DDA-related problem is [email protected].
We will try to help you asap, consider that this may have delay.
Second thing: I’m trying to read all the forum topic you shared us, there are a lot of interesting things that I would like to answer

• Even if Ducati’s marketing reported a number of laps/hours of data logging, you have to consider it as an estimation. Indeed, starting from years back 1199 Panigale project
many changes were done to the configuration of the bike produced after 2010, adding new channels that originally were not sampled at all (see LEAN ANGLE), increasing the frequency
of already sampled channels and adding brand new interesting features like partials laps of the new Panigale V4 R.
It’s clear that since the DDA HW memory wasn’t change in those years what changed was acquiring more samples per second and this causes a shorter acquisition length.
This is absolutely not related to any lap number as one of the forum users correctly posted.
• I saw that you discovered a bug in the DIST channel. Please send me the run in which you have faced the bug, I’m going to have a look on that and fix it. Claiming for bug fix in a forum post it’s useless, rather be smart and contact me next time
• Don’t know why TORQUE_FAST / SLOW are not displayed, not sure this is a visualizer bug or a DDA bug or the bike itself is not sending any data for that channel. Have you always experienced this problem so far or is this something new?
I’m going to forward this to Ducati.

That’s the max I can do for you right now. I didn’t carefully read all posts (since there were a lot of things referring to 2018 or mounting issues that are not in my knowledge, unfortunately).

Let me know if I forgot answering you something or if you need further explanations, I'll try to answer you (you are so many, I'm alone).

Marco

 

[mpita]

Ah just fyi below my answer regarding the enhancements

1 - properly enhancing its supplied DDA Graphic Analyser Software to a similar or even better level as VBox and Aim are offering to their customers for their 'Sport' and 'Solo 2';


Which kind of functionalities do you feel missing?

2 - Easy integration and overlaying DDA+ data on DiY (GoPro) movie content as Garmin does or even better with its VIRB Edit software;

This could be easily fixed by giving the ability to the users to export the DDA data in another exchange format (like CSV or Plain Text). Times back I was asking this internally but this was not accepted. I'm going to ask again for it, stay tuned.

3 - logging all/more V4 datatypes at the expense of some recording time, e.g. engine-temperatures, all electronic ABS-DTC-DSC-DWC etc. interventions by ECU per sat. position, etc.


Yes and why not the number of people riding the bike . Just kidding. Seriously: the channels acquired by the DDA are set officially by Ducati for each bike. This doesn't depend on us.

4 - wireless(!) communication and integration of all V4 'DDA' data via an enhanced 'DMS' connection with Ducati Link app for smartphones a/o with DDA Analyser on MAC/PC

This requires a new hardware. You should ask this to Ducati.

5 - etc
... - ...

..?

10 - DDA USB stick ('old school'!) with zillion more RAM memory

We are talking about FLASH memory, not RAM, actually. Furthermore the FLASH is one of the most expensive part of the DDA (consider the hardware is designed to work in very stressful conditions, do not compare it to USB pendrives).
This requires a new hardware, but please, if you need it claim it to Ducati.

 

[RdashP]

Ciao ragazzi,
I'm Marco, one of the SW developers that worked to the DDA Analysis software

Hi Marco,
Thank you. Clear answers and welcome to this active passionate forum.
We won't roast you since it's great the DDA Dev joins our discussion trying to make the overall DDA experience a better one!

May be together we can debug DDA faster and suggest a few functional improvements squeezing out the best possible from the current limited DDA hardware?

Especially your clarification about the since 2010(?!) unchanged 16MB limited "˜military grade' flash memory is by today's standards and V4 requirements (with nowadays much more data channels and higher sampling rates), very surprising to me!

i) Was Prosa even involved in V4 development at all?
i-a) And if so, why didn't the DDA specs grow with Ducati's latest tech level (V4) racers do require, e.g. like AiM and VBox are offering (AiM link)

ii) Ducati sells the DDA for V4 as 'DDA+'. What is '+' about the V4 compatible DDA compared to the previous DDA versions then? No new functionality nor more memory. Then what was added compared to 1299 DDA?

iii) Really if DDA is currently very much memory limited, then why doesn't Prosa 'cherrypick' - with Ducati approval - only the for racing relevant data channels required for proper post-race analysis as 3rd party laptimer developers, AiM and VBox, are offering to us?

iii-a) For example, 'DST' does work if you zoom enough into details during analysis, but DST is an irrelevant data channel for racers. Especially if memory is a constraint then why not of water/oil temperature instead (as even advertised in Ducati DDA info)?

iii-b) Can you rename the Torque_Fast and Torque_slow channels to what they really are: DTC and DWC? Or indeed if DDA doesn't store data for both channels then please fix do them. Having not yet tracked the V4, I can't verify if they work.
May be @ex04053 can?

iii-c) With approval of Ducati, can you add ABS, DSC, EBC channels to DDA channel recording so, like DTC and DWC, you can analyse when and how they were active at which datapoint on track?

iii-d) May be an option that we as racers can select ourselves which channels we want the DDA to store and DDA Graphic Analyser SW to present?
This way we can choose ourselves how much acquisition length we are willing to sacrifice for more/less data channels!

Back to my 1-2-3 list:

1 - properly enhancing its supplied DDA Graphic Analyser Software:
refer to iii-abcd and and *I'm sure* @1050er, @MotoX183, @Keith197 and @thorny have clear wishes working both with AiM and DDA side-by-side in their V4's

2 - Easy integration and overlaying DDA+ data on DiY (GoPro) movie
Great if you could make an export option in DDA Analyser SW so we can import this DDA data back into Garmin VIRB Edit or GoPro Quick

3 - logging all/more V4 datatypes
refer to 1 and iii. FYI Ducati doesn't listen, learn & adapt to the needs of us DDA 'racing' endusers. Too bad is it not?

Besides I believe Prosa-Danfoss, having the GPS Laptimer knowhow Ducati needs, should partner with Ducati and advice them pro-actively how to develop a kick-... laptimer-analysis kit for V4.
Else real racers will leave/ won't even buy DDA and buy 3rd party like AiM or VBox instead.

4 - wireless communication and integration of all V4 'DDA' data via DMS to app/Mac/PC
refer to 3, again Prosa should partner, advice & lead Ducati to get the best out of DDA for their racing customers!

10 - more Flash RAM
Even though this 'military grade' flash RAM is supposedly (still) expensive, 16MB is really INsufficient for reasons you mention yourselve and under i to iii

Also @MotoX183 has some wishes listed here: http://ducatiforum.com/ducati-v4/31592-dda-gps-12.html#post340081

Tx, Robert

 

[01COCCOBET]

I stay with Robert RdashP.
An expansive kelit like DDA+ should be a little more flexible and give the chance to customize at least what it has already " inside ", and not hidden.
I believe Ducati- Prosa agreements are done,but at least,there could be a solution for customers like us,wanting to explore the funcions/info already there.
At the end of the day,if we are allowed to change DTC,EBC,DSC etc on the rolling bike,why we shouldn't read the outcome on a computer.

Anyway great job @Marco.

I wish we could meet one day

 

[mpita]

Robert, please find below my answers

May be together we can debug DDA faster and suggest a few functional improvements squeezing out the best possible from the current limited DDA hardware?

Why not.

i) Was Prosa even involved in V4 development at all?
i-a) And if so, why didn’t the DDA specs grow with Ducati’s latest tech level (V4) racers do require, e.g. like AiM and VBox are offering (AiM link)

i) You have to specify which kind of involvement you are referring to. Our participation was limited to update the DDA configuration in order to support the new vehicle specs. For V4R as I said before there was the necessity to introduce a new feature (intermediate/partial laps).
i-a) This question should be asked to Ducati. All the HW/SW evolutions must be approved by them: we can surely suggest new improvements or new functionalities but they have the last word. Probably the product (DDA) they are selling fits mostly the consumer/target request, therefore they are focused in enhancing something else (like the mechanic of the bike).
Telemetry is not the Ducati's main business.

ii) Ducati sells the DDA for V4 as ’DDA+’. What is '+’ about the V4 compatible DDA compared to the previous DDA versions then? No new functionality nor more memory. Then what was added compared to 1299 DDA?

DDA+ (GPS) was the evolution of the old fashioned black DDA (manufacturer prior 2010) with less memory and without GPS capability.

iii) Really if DDA is currently very much memory limited, then why doesn’t Prosa ’cherrypick’ - with Ducati approval - only the for racing relevant data channels required for proper post-race analysis as 3rd party laptimer developers, AiM and VBox, are offering to us?

There would be a lot of interesting things to do. But this topic leads to business decision that I am not able to explain and I am not completely aware of.

iii-a) For example, 'DST' does work if you zoom enough into details during analysis, but DST is an irrelevant data channel for racers. Especially if memory is a constraint then why not of water/oil temperature instead (as even advertised in Ducati DDA info)?

Don't know why and how Ducati chooses the channels to acquire.

iii-b) Can you rename the Torque_Fast and Torque_slow channels to what they really are: DTC and DWC? Or indeed if DDA doesn't store data for both channels then please fix do them. Having not yet tracked the V4, I can't verify if they work.
May be @ex04053 can?
iii-c) With approval of Ducati, can you add ABS, DSC, EBC channels to DDA channel recording so, like DTC and DWC, you can analyse when and how they were active at which datapoint on track?

Channels name are formally set by Ducati specs.
However I'm going to forward your request to my Ducati contact. Let's see how they react to your request.

iii-d) May be an option that we as racers can select ourselves which channels we want the DDA to store and DDA Graphic Analyser SW to present?
This way we can choose ourselves how much acquisition length we are willing to sacrifice for more/less data channels!

I'm going to forward this request too. Technically would be possible.

 

[btb]

@mpita, would you guys consider making the format of the data files public?

 

[mpita]

No. The format is proprietary and copyrighted. What we can eventually do is to give the ability to convert the files in text format (CSV or something else).

 

[btb]

Even better if its a format that is easy to parse. CVS is a good choice since its supported by many tools. If that is something that DDA can provide it would make it far more useful for me.

 

[ex04053]

Many thanks for your input and offer to help improve the DDA Marco!

Hi Marco,
iii-b) Can you rename the Torque_Fast and Torque_slow channels to what they really are: DTC and DWC? Or indeed if DDA doesn't store data for both channels then please fix do them. Having not yet tracked the V4, I can't verify if they work.
May be @ex04053 can?


Tx, Robert

I can confirm both channels work, here's some data from both at my local track. I'm not sure what the scale refers to though...:

 

[RdashP]

I can confirm both channels work

wow DTC and DWC interventions look pretty detailed indeed.
If activated, it looks like the DDA actually logs the level of DTC and DWC intervention with every datapoint on track! cool

@mpita
Marco, can you confirm this?
Can you additionally please add the channels: ABS, DSC, EBC, Engine Temperature and Power (HP) channels per GPS data-point similarly as DTC/DWC graphs?

FYI Lean Angle, Speed, Power (HP) and mileage channels are already delivered to Ducati Link app via DMS module, so starting with Power (HP) it should be easy to add to DDA dataset too (if Ducati agrees that is).

 

[01COCCOBET]

I am looking forward to seeing that.
Hopefully

 

[RdashP]

Copy-paste from the V4 WORKSHOP MANUAL there are actually 2 GPS enabled setups sold for the V4:

"Ducati Lap Timer GPS (DLT GPS)
The DLT GPS allows lap times to be automatically recorded, stored and displayed directly on the instrument panel each time the finish line is crossed – providing the rider has previously entered the finish line coordinates, by pressing the flasher button. The system has a useful “Best Lap” feature that displays the lap time flashing for 5 seconds if it is the best recorded lap time in the current track session. For each lap, and for a total of 15 consecutive laps, the lap time, max rpm and top speed are stored; this information can be viewed on the instrument panel by accessing the special menu. The DLT GPS is part of the standard equipment on the Panigale V4 Speciale and is available as a Ducati Performance plugandplay accessory for the Panigale V4 and Panigale V4 S.

Ducati Data Analyser + GPS (DDA+ GPS)
The Ducati Data Analyser + GPS (DDA + GPS), evaluates the performance of the motorcycle and its rider by graphically presenting specific channels of information. The DDA + GPS is an essential piece of equipment for track use: it monitors the rider’s performance, in addition to automatically recording and displaying lap times whenever the Panigale V4 crosses the finish line. It stores a number of data channels including throttle opening, vehicle speed, engine rpm, gear engaged, engine temperature, distance travelled, rpm and DTC index. DDA + GPS is available as a Ducati Performance plugandplay accessory, while it is supplied as standard with the Speciale."

Even though most likely available as data channel, even the workshop manual is INcorrect about the "engine temperature" channel being passed through to the DDA Analyser Software!

 

[01COCCOBET]

I believe that the channel is there but is ghosted to avoid some " interesting " info about the running temperatures.
Anyway I hope " some expert " could enlight us on how to open the channel.
I am also PERSONALLY interested in a lean angle info on the dashboard(that gives for few seconds the max lean angle,so you can have a glance after the turn,similar to the one shown on motogp race).
I think the new Honda CBR RR SP has something like that

 

[RdashP]

I believe that the channel is there but is ghosted to avoid some " interesting " info about the running temperatures.

Really? That sounds like a typical Italian coverup to me! ;p

Would also also explain:
- why all V4 Pani's will get the wider more airy shark gilled 'R': bringing engine temperature down for better engine component longevity and clutch-fade mitigating in 1 blow!
- Prosa (i.e. Marco/ @mpita), since his last reply here on October 14th, is not replying to our recent DDA improvement requests (i.e. adding more data-channels like engine-temp) anymore? Total silence...

Anyway I hope " some expert " could enlight us on how to open the channel.

Since Marco (@mpita) already replied to us "format is proprietary and copyrighted". I doubt that anybody but Prosa can do this?...

I am also PERSONALLY interested in a lean angle info on the dashboard

Indeed and that's exactly what the Ducati linkapp is displaying in realtime via the DMS module already!

So why not also both in the V4 display and as data channel for DDA as well?

Sadly quite some issues still with V4 and DMS module. As I tried to explain here

 

[01COCCOBET]

Really? That sounds like a typical Italian coverup to me! ;p

Would also also explain:
- why all V4 Pani's will get the wider more airy shark gilled 'R': bringing engine temperature down for better engine component longevity and clutch-fade mitigating in 1 blow!
- Prosa (i.e. Marco/ @mpita), since his last reply here on October 14th, is not replying to our recent DDA improvement requests (i.e. adding more data-channels like engine-temp) anymore? Total silence...



Since Marco (@mpita) already replied to us "format is proprietary and copyrighted". I doubt that anybody but Prosa can do this?...


Indeed and that's exactly what the Ducati linkapp is displaying in realtime via the DMS module already! So why not in the V4 display and as data channel for DDA as well?
Sadly quite some issues still with V4 and DMS module...

Indeed

I hope they are reading this and the Italian's site as well

 

[01COCCOBET]

Marco cannot do anything about that.

At least,I think officially