1199 Lemon

zvez · Jun 25, 2013

som e times talking to ducati first before getting a lawyer doesnt hurt. Recal the plastic tank issue everyone was hot to due an d get alawyer lawsuit settled not terribly well for owners and the lawyer in charge made a bucket of money. Ju s t mono

Capt CF said:
+1 on AH's comment. I hate to go all "American" on you and, believe me, our litigious society drives me crazy at times, but I think at this point I would lawyer up. Sometimes just the fact that you have counsel involved will prompt a resolution and I think you have been more than patient at this point. I was driving up to New England for Thanksgiving one year to visit friends and I got rear ended in Connecticut by someone with Mass plates. I was actually parked at a gas station and walking into the store when the driver hit me so there was no question of fault. It was drivable so I finished my trip and when I got back took it to a local body shop that specializes in German autos. They fixed everything, but the driver's insurance company refused to pay because the "invoice was too high" and the shop kept after me to pay them directly and sort it out on my own since they just wanted to get paid and get the car off their lot. Then the car rental place started calling saying the insurance company wouldn't authorize any more days of car rental since my car was done, but I wasn't going to pay the invoice myself and then try to get the money back from the driver's insurance company since I figured I'd never see it. I called the insurance guy and tried to reason with him and told them that if they don't pay the invoice and take back my rental they are leaving me in a really bad situation. It didn't work so on the next call I told him that at this point I'd have to involve a lawyer. Long story short, one of my buddies is a patent attorney so even though he isn't even close to qualified to deal with a case like this I got him on the horn anyway and he fired off a letter or two. When the insurance company called me to discuss it I told them I had hired counsel and everything had to go through my attorney. The body shop got paid that week.

Not saying I like the system, but I'll be damned if I am going to be the one screwed by it.

Good luck!

Capt CF · Jun 25, 2013

zvez said:
som e times talking to ducati first before getting a lawyer doesnt hurt. Recal the plastic tank issue everyone was hot to due an d get alawyer lawsuit settled not terribly well for owners and the lawyer in charge made a bucket of money. Ju s t mono

Agreed. That was why I made the point of trying to reason with them again. Just tell them they are putting you in a very difficult position and you have exhausted every avenue you can think of to come to a resolution. If something doesn't happen in the next <insert reasonable time period here> you don't see any other recourse other than retaining counsel and allowing them to pursue the matter. You'd like to avoid that route if at all possible, but I wouldn't let it go on too long.

WV 1199 · Jun 25, 2013

bolds said:
This guy seems happy enough with the bike to carry on riding it with the coolant leak and has worn a tyre out but won't buy a new one because he might get a new bike, wish we had a law like that here would make cheap biking

No I'm not happy with the coolant leak, the only reason the dealer hasnt picked it up is because their trailer is getting work done to it, and they dont have a loaner program which also sucks, so i am just getting as much use out of the bike as i can before it goes away for another few weeks. The dealer has been excellent as far as taking care of me goes, it's just DNA that i never hear anything from. As far as the coolant leak goes its not gushing out from anywhere, it is seeping from the crankcase halves and pooling in the back and drying on the engine, if it was a hazard there is no way id be riding it, and in fact this is probably the last day ill be riding it due to all the rain coming through for the rest of the week. Why would i go and spend a good amount of money on a new rear tire when it is going to sit up at the dealer? if they fix it and it comes back and it looks like i wont get a new bike or it will take awhile for everything to go through id buy a new tire but at this stage why put the money out there when i wouldnt get it back?

Styler · Jun 25, 2013

I also have a lemon and have contacted Ducati NA regarding refund or replacement. I picked mine up during the first week of May, 2012; perhaps mine was one of the earlier batches that did not get put together very well.
Lawyer is the next step; first step was a polite, registered letter seeking mediation rather than litigation. They should receive the letter this week.
In short, it's a fabulous motorcycle when it works; but I have had too many problems and wasted days of my life getting this thing to the dealer every time it stops working.
Last issue was the starter motor quitting. Dealer was also trying to fix the hydraulic clutch issue again by replacing both the master and slave cylinders (again). While looking at the bike, they told me that it had very unusual wear inside the wet clutch and so they are replacing some crap in there as well.

FYI - Most lemon laws do not apply to motorcylces.

WV 1199 · Jun 25, 2013

They have had my letter since the beginning of June and still nothing, I've been calling pretty regularly today to try and get someone on the phone to see if there has been any progress.

Duck41 · Jun 25, 2013

WV 1199 said:
They have had my latter since the beginning of June and still nothing, I've been calling pretty regularly today to try and get someone on the phone to see if there has been any progress.

Just out of curiosity, what break in method did you use before the engine replacement and was this investigated by your dealership?

WV 1199 · Jun 25, 2013

i kept it around 6-7k but it wasnt much of a break in period considering how early the engine was replaced (167 miles). oil was actually dripping out onto the front header exhaust shield, so although the motor was smoking on start up a little it was replaced due to the oil leaking onto the headers, and yes everything was fully investigated and documented by the dealership. DNA actually knew about my bike when i called in the first time demanding the buy back. when the new engine was put in one of the clutch plates in the engine were actually installed incorrectly as noted in the techs notes during the installation which raised a little red flag but i figured its a new motor it should be good but i was wrong.

Duck41 · Jun 25, 2013

WV 1199 said:
i kept it around 6-7k but it wasnt much of a break in period considering how early the engine was replaced (167 miles). oil was actually dripping out onto the front header exhaust shield, so although the motor was smoking on start up a little it was replaced due to the oil leaking onto the headers, and yes everything was fully investigated and documented by the dealership. DNA actually knew about my bike when i called in the first time demanding the buy back. when the new engine was put in one of the clutch plates in the engine were actually installed incorrectly as noted in the techs notes during the installation which raised a little red flag but i figured its a new motor it should be good but i was wrong.

While researching break-in approaches this afternoon, I happened to run across one of your previous statements written in February which seems to contradict what you just wrote:

WV 1199 said:
go onto the highway as soon as you can and take the engine braking control off and run it up to redline and back down, this will help seat the rings as soon as possible, never had any oil issues on mine or any other engine ive broken in that way for that matter.

It really makes no difference to me as I hope Ducati resolves the situation to your satisfaction; I'm just interested in discovering more about the degree to which Ducati utilizes ECU data and the value they attribute to that data when determining what action to take in a warranty claim situation. If you ran the bike to redline during break in it may provide valuable information to the Panigale community on how strictly Ducati enforces its 6k rpm break in limit.

Fragile · Jun 25, 2013

MUNDMAN · Jun 25, 2013

Duck41 said:
While researching break-in approaches this afternoon, I happened to run across one of your previous statements written in February which seems to contradict what you just wrote:

It really makes no difference to me as I hope Ducati resolves the situation to your satisfaction; I'm just interested in discovering more about the degree to which Ducati utilizes ECU data and the value they attribute to that data when determining what action to take in a warranty claim situation. If you ran the bike to redline during break in it may provide valuable information to the Panigale community on how strictly Ducati enforces its 6k rpm break in limit.

He just CNNed yo ...!

Fragile · Jun 25, 2013

getting a brand new bike and heading for the freeway straight away, minimizing engine braking, redlining the bike all sounds very dangerous to me. Do it at your own risk hehe. I'd rather cruise it around and get familiar with the bike first and then follow the running-in instructions, but that's just me.

Trauma · Jun 25, 2013

Fragile said:
getting a brand new bike and heading for the freeway straight away, minimizing engine braking, redlining the bike all sounds very dangerous to me. Do it at your own risk hehe. I'd rather cruise it around and get familiar with the bike first and then follow the running-in instructions, but that's just me.

There is a thread here somewhere, and several said they ride it hard from the beginning, and that is the best way. I am not one of those, just sayin'

WV 1199 · Jun 25, 2013

Duck41 said:
While researching break-in approaches this afternoon, I happened to run across one of your previous statements written in February which seems to contradict what you just wrote:

It really makes no difference to me as I hope Ducati resolves the situation to your satisfaction; I'm just interested in discovering more about the degree to which Ducati utilizes ECU data and the value they attribute to that data when determining what action to take in a warranty claim situation. If you ran the bike to redline during break in it may provide valuable information to the Panigale community on how strictly Ducati enforces its 6k rpm break in limit.

Well if you had read what he asked me; he asked about how I broke in the first engine and thats how i broke in the first engine and guess what it smoked on start up and had other oil issues. after getting the second engine i took off the engine braking and that is how i broke it in to get as much vacuum on the cylinders as possible to help seat the rings and i have never had any issue with smoking or oil leaking since then, and that is how ive broken in race car engines and fresh rebuilds and have never had a problem with any of them.

Duck41 · Jun 25, 2013

WV 1199 said:
Well if you had read what he asked me; he asked about how I broke in the first engine and thats how i broke in the first engine and guess what it smoked on start up and had other oil issues. after getting the second engine i took off the engine braking and that is how i broke it in to get as much vacuum on the cylinders as possible to help seat the rings and i have never had any issue with smoking or oil leaking since then, and that is how ive broken in race car engines and fresh rebuilds and have never had a problem with any of them.

I'm still seeing inconsistencies which is making it difficult for me to acquire the information I'm looking for.

In your first post of this thread you mentioned the engine was replaced at 167 miles. In post 27 in this thread you stated that the engine only had 167 miles but that you did not exceed 6-7k rpm during these 167 miles. Now you are saying you actually started redlining the bike (same 167 mile engine) as soon as possible straight off the dealer floor. Which is it?

WV 1199 · Jun 26, 2013

Duck41 said:
I'm still seeing inconsistencies which is making it difficult for me to acquire the information I'm looking for.

In your first post of this thread you mentioned the engine was replaced at 167 miles. In post 27 in this thread you stated that the engine only had 167 miles but that you did not exceed 6-7k rpm during these 167 miles. Now you are saying you actually started redlining the bike (same 167 mile engine) as soon as possible straight off the dealer floor. Which is it?

I'm not going to argue with you anymore about this; its way off topic and i never said anything about redlining it as soon as i got off the dealer floor.

Duck41 · Jun 26, 2013

WV 1199 said:
I'm not going to argue with you anymore about this; its way off topic and i never said anything about redlining it as soon as i got off the dealer floor.

This quote implies you wasted no time to start redlining the bike:

WV 1199 said:
go onto the highway as soon as you can and take the engine braking control off and run it up to redline and back down, this will help seat the rings as soon as possible, never had any oil issues on mine or any other engine ive broken in that way for that matter..

This isn't an argument, it's an attempt to clarify false information. You started a thread discussing your displeasure with this bike, the repairs it has required, and your overall frustration with Ducati NA. You have gone so far as to claim you have a lemon situation.

When asked if the bike was broken in per the manual you initially said it was. Evidence has come to light which leads us to reasonably assume the bike was not broken in per the manual, but was redlined as soon as possible.

Now you have changed your stance and have stated you did in fact redline the bike as soon as possible, but you fail to acknowledge any correlation between how your bike was broken in and the mechanical issues that have arisen. You also fail to express any concern about this with regard to your hopes Ducati will buy your bike back or replace it with a higher value 2013 model. If it were me, this would have me legitimately concerned.

Finally, this information is very much relevant as your lemon claim and this thread could influence a potential Panigale owner's decision to purchase the bike or not. I believe those readers should have all of the facts and am personally interested in learning more about how much weight Ducati attributes to ECU data in a warranty situation. I'm sure others would like to know more about this as well.

WV 1199 · Jun 26, 2013

Ok let me break this down for you since you seem to have a hard time grasping what is going on. First look at the date of that of that post, February 27 2013. I purchased my bike December 13 2012 and on the ride home and stayed in the 6-7k rpm range, It started leaking about about 10 days later with the first engine, the bike did not go into the shop until January 2 2013. The bike stayed there for a little over 2 weeks and a new engine was approved to be put in the bike. I got the bike back late January and was able to take it out during a warmish day in February and broke the engine in the way I normally brake in engines, by putting as much vacuum on the engine as possible during deceleration to help push the piston rings out against the cross hatching of the cylinder walls which helps seats them well and prevents glazing which would inhibit a good seal over the life of the engine

Not once have I changed my stance when asked about the first engine i told him it was broken in per the manual and when I wrote the statement about the second engine in february that was how i broke the second engine in and it has been trouble free, hasnt consumed oil at all but as per the notes from the dealer there is an issue with the thermostat housing being the weak point.

I dont see how I can make it any clearer for you unless you want me to draw you a picture or something but the fact that you are accusing me of changine my stance is absurd.

Duck41 · Jun 26, 2013

I appreciate your attempt to clarify your statements and do apologize if this is causing you any frustration, but when referring to the post you made in the other thread

WV 1199 said:
go onto the highway as soon as you can and take the engine braking control off and run it up to redline and back down, this will help seat the rings as soon as possible, never had any oil issues on mine or any other engine ive broken in that way for that matter.

you stated this:

WV 1199 said:
thats how i broke in the first engine and guess what it smoked on start up and had other oil issues. after getting the second engine i took off the engine braking and that is how i broke it in

If you say it is incorrect to to believe you changed your stance despite what these statements entail then I am fine with that, but sufficient clarification on this detail would be beneficial to the Panigale community.

ronaledsmith · Sep 20, 2019

So sad it is. sorry

Phl · Sep 20, 2019

ronaledsmith said:
So sad it is. sorry

Your comment is 6 years late to the party

1199 Lemon

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