1299 Base vs. 1299S

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I agree with you.

But the original question/debate is which bike is a better "value" (or which one I would buy for a street bike/occasional TD bike). And in both instances, the R1 is the better choice.

Yes - the 1299 has a little more torque. But the 85ish ft/lbs of torque the R1 has is more than enough for any street riding/track days.

And the R1 doesn't burn your ... (exhaust heat) and costs $5k-$8k less.

Plus there is the Jap reliability and ease of obtaining parts/work/data.
 
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/...a-r1-back-on-top-ultimate-superbike-shootout/

I think most people have seen the MCN comparison test, but if you scroll to about 6:15 you will see the numbers:

1299 - 196 hp, 105 ft-lbs
R1 - 189 hp, 83 ft-lbs

That is the Euro spec R1 - the 1299 has a whopping 22 ft-lbs advantage, and it gets to that number 3000 rpm earlier. That is a major difference, especially on the street
 
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Those are crank numbers. Nobody is arguing with you that the 1299 has a bit more torque, just saying it's not this "whopping advantage" you're thinking of.

Take away 15% and you're actually looking at roughly a 13 ft-lb difference at the rear wheel.
 
Those are dyno numbers (admittedly an optimistic dyno)

I agree with Chris the R1 is the better value and in all likelihood the better track bike, period, but I think the 1299 is a better street bike. Torque matters, and the 1299 has a 20% kick in the pants more of it. Ride both bikes back-to-back and I think anyone could tell the difference.
 
I know all dynos are different but I have a hard time believing those numbers. A 15% loss from manufactures claimed has always been a good rule of thumb and the very few real world numbers I've seen on the 1299 seem to support this.

Have you ever actually upgraded a bike that resulted in 10-15 ft-lbs of torque gained? I have, and while it's noticeable, the words major and whopping definitely didn't come to mind.
 
fzr100098 said:
That is the Euro spec R1 - the 1299 has a whopping 22 ft-lbs advantage, and it gets to that number 3000 rpm earlier. That is a major difference, especially on the street
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That is one dyno. They all vary. The majority of dyno charts I have seen put the 1299 around 95-96ft/lbs. And the R1 around 85-87ft/lbs.

Regardless, that still doesn't change anything about my original point of the R1 being a better value and "bang for the buck" bike, for many reasons.

And as far as your last point, what exactly is the "difference"? How will ones street riding being tangibly different? Be able to get to the grocery store 0.8sec faster? Be able to pass 4 cars at once instead of 3?

THAT is my point. When it comes to street riding, it really doesn't matter. Like I said, I have a street bike (Sprint ST) that weighs about 550lbs and makes about 65-70ft/lbs of torque and it will power wheelie from 5k RPM. To think that anyone needs 100ft/lbs, or even 85ft/lbs on the street or would have a better street riding experience because of that torque is laughable.

I can't understand why we are still going on about torque figures when they have nothing to do with the original question regarding which one I would choose for the street and which one is the better value.The R1 costs $5k-$8k less, is just as light, just as fast (or all intents and purposes), has more advanced electronics (due to the upgraded IMU) and doesn't burn your ... with exhaust heat. It doesn't matter if the 1299 has 10ft/lbs or 20ft/lbs more torque. It still doesn't change anything regarding which bike is a better value.

Not to mention I could take that extra $5k-$8k, throw on a full exhaust, some gearing and a dyno tune and throw the R1 over 90ft/lbs of torque plus the additional "pull" from the gearing...and still have $4k-$6k left over.

And for the record, I am not regretting my purchase of the 1299S. I think it looks better, is cooler, is more exclusive and most importantly, it is legal in more race classes. I just find the biased comments on these brand-based forums a little silly. Especially when trying to say one space-age ridiculously fast Liter bike is much better than the other one....and even more so when talking about street riding.

Of course this is just my opinion. Others may vary. :)
 
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Rogue said:
Those are crank numbers. Nobody is arguing with you that the 1299 has a bit more torque, just saying it's not this "whopping advantage" you're thinking of.

Take away 15% and you're actually looking at roughly a 13 ft-lb difference at the rear wheel.
Click to expand...

Rogue said:
I know all dynos are different but I have a hard time believing those numbers. A 15% loss from manufactures claimed has always been a good rule of thumb and the very few real world numbers I've seen on the 1299 seem to support this.

Have you ever actually upgraded a bike that resulted in 10-15 ft-lbs of torque gained? I have, and while it's noticeable, the words major and whopping definitely didn't come to mind.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
Chaotic said:
Regardless, that still doesn't change anything about my original point of the R1 being a better value and "bang for the buck" bike, for many reasons.
Click to expand...

Yes, and I never debated that, we're in agreement. The 1299 has significantly more torque and you will notice it on the street, that was my only point. Until you've ridden the bike, you can't comment from experience.

What do you do for a living Chris?
 
Chaotic said:
I actually do too :D.

I am stuck at work out of the country and this helps the long days pass. :)
Click to expand...

Me too. Can't even get home to pick up the new 1299. Told the dealer to give mine to the next guy in line and I'll take one from the July shipment. Had a deposit down since November so that hurt....

On another note, let me know when you want to sell that R6. I'm looking to upgrade track bikes from my "fixxer" 600.
 
You are right. However, I have ridden lots of bikes with torque numbers varying from single digits (Grom) to over 100ft/lbs on the street.

My point is that at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter on the street. Sure, I can tell a difference. But whether i have 50ft/lbs or 100ft/lbs, I get through the mountains the same, to the grocery store just as fast, etc.

And it matters even less when the "weaker" bike still makes 85-ish ft/lbs of torque. Yes...the riding experience will be more enjoyable on a bike that makes 90ft/lbs rather than one that makes 16ft/lbs.

But 85 or 95...even 85 or 100...it doesn't make a tangible difference in the riding experience. Either one is capable of power wheelies in every gear, either one is capable of passing as many cars as one so desires and either one can get you from 30mph to illegal speeds with the quickness.

I am a Shorebased Superintendent for an offshore oil drilling company. :)
 
Rogue said:
On another note, let me know when you want to sell that R6. I'm looking to upgrade track bikes from my "fixxer" 600.
Click to expand...

Hmm, it is funny you say that because if I get along well with the Duc, I will be doing just that (selling the R6). The Duc is legal in 5 classes, so I really wont have a need for the R6.
 
Chaotic said:
We are splitting hairs when it comes to debating the torque of these two bikes. That is like saying having $96million in the bank is much better than only $87million in the bank. Well of course it is, but $87million is way more than anybody needs to be happy.
Click to expand...

Great analogy mate. May have to steal this one for future use!
 
But again, it's not just the difference in the peak number, it's how the motor delivers that number. The 1299 is making as much torque at 6k rpm as many liters make at redline
 
fzr100098 said:
But again, it's not just the difference in the peak number, it's how the motor delivers that number. The 1299 is making as much torque at 6k rpm as many liters make at redline
Click to expand...
Exactly... It's the area under the curve that matters most.
 
I too am having a big issue with this... I've always been the guy that's saved more for that bit extra. Some of you might remember my thread about the 1299 as a first bike. I honestly do believe I could get onto a 1299, and ride it just fine without killing myself, I'm very responsible and cautious, and don't like taking risks. Realize when I say ride, I mean, riding like a poser, not giving it huge throttle and riding it like a hooligan, I mean riding it like its a cruiser lol.

But I have decided that, I may not even like riding, so either sometime this year or next, depends on how things go, I will get the KTM RC390, I thought I might for the duke 390 because its 500 bucks less and looks less cheap, but the RC has the more aggressive riding style which I might wanna get used to if I ever want a 1299.

Still, realistically, unless a miracle happens, I will not be able to buy either the base or the S model with cash. I would probably put down 5k DP and then finance the rest. 6k is a huge deal when it comes to a bike. Especially when the base here in Canada will likely be 23k+ OTD. I guessed maybe 30k retail OTD for our pricing here.

Its such a tough decision, because I am always that guy who looks back and things, "I shoulda got the better". That said, I'm not rich at all, and buying this bike is more to just get something that I know is gonna make me really happy, rather than a smart financial decision. Either bike will knock me back for the term of the finance, and I may have to make some serious sacrifices, such as taking the bus in the winter time (easy sacrifice to make for the bike of dreams).

What do you guys think, I've got it down like this.
Just as a baseline, in case I can't get good interest or deals, I've set everything fairly high I think. Obviously I could probably get a bit better than this but ya never know.

Base, 24k, 5k down, 60 month, 9% interest. 394.40 a month.
S model, 30k 5k down, 60 month, 9% interest, 518.95 a month

It may not seem like a big deal to some of you, but thats 5 years you're making those payments for, a lot can happen in that amount of time. Sorry for my rambling haha. Cheers guys.
 
SecretlyaFish said:
I too am having a big issue with this... I've always been the guy that's saved more for that bit extra. Some of you might remember my thread about the 1299 as a first bike. I honestly do believe I could get onto a 1299, and ride it just fine without killing myself, I'm very responsible and cautious, and don't like taking risks. Realize when I say ride, I mean, riding like a poser, not giving it huge throttle and riding it like a hooligan, I mean riding it like its a cruiser lol.

But I have decided that, I may not even like riding, so either sometime this year or next, depends on how things go, I will get the KTM RC390, I thought I might for the duke 390 because its 500 bucks less and looks less cheap, but the RC has the more aggressive riding style which I might wanna get used to if I ever want a 1299.

Still, realistically, unless a miracle happens, I will not be able to buy either the base or the S model with cash. I would probably put down 5k DP and then finance the rest. 6k is a huge deal when it comes to a bike. Especially when the base here in Canada will likely be 23k+ OTD. I guessed maybe 30k retail OTD for our pricing here.

Its such a tough decision, because I am always that guy who looks back and things, "I shoulda got the better". That said, I'm not rich at all, and buying this bike is more to just get something that I know is gonna make me really happy, rather than a smart financial decision. Either bike will knock me back for the term of the finance, and I may have to make some serious sacrifices, such as taking the bus in the winter time (easy sacrifice to make for the bike of dreams).

What do you guys think, I've got it down like this.
Just as a baseline, in case I can't get good interest or deals, I've set everything fairly high I think. Obviously I could probably get a bit better than this but ya never know.

Base, 24k, 5k down, 60 month, 9% interest. 394.40 a month.
S model, 30k 5k down, 60 month, 9% interest, 518.95 a month

It may not seem like a big deal to some of you, but thats 5 years you're making those payments for, a lot can happen in that amount of time. Sorry for my rambling haha. Cheers guys.
Click to expand...

You are right in many ways. I dont know much about the financial situation in Canada but 9% interest is pretty high and you seem very grounded from what you are saying.

I would look around for a better interest rate, or plan to it off early.

Good Luck!
 
9% interest is ridiculous. Don't do it man, you'll be making payments during the winter (8months) on something that you can't even use. You can get a Line of Credit from your bank for way lower.

Grind your dealer in calgary, you can get them down to $22k otd. I don't judge anyone, but my theory is with toys if I can't pay it out right I don't need it. Get the 390, you'll have more fun riding a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow!
 

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