2012 vs 2015 chassis

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ducdom

ducdom

Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
63
Location
Santa Barbara California
What are the real differences in the chassis between the 2012 Pani and the 2015 Pani?
The magazine reviewers says the 2015 is soon much better. Isn't the only thing that changed 0.5 degrees in steering head angle and a few degrees in Swingarm angle?


What am I missing?
 
I didn't notice anything going to -4 on the swing arm, think you'd need to be pro rider at the limit to notice, the 24* steering insert I can feel, steers even faster than before, no instability so far, yes the bars wag a bit but nothing to cause concern
 
ducdom said:
Can this make a bike soo much better?
Click to expand...

It can.

Whether the individual can notice or utilize it is another question.

A few mm can make a world of difference. It can make the difference between the bike finishing corners on the gas or running wide, or the difference between the bike holding it's line at full lean or not. Not to mention tire wear, stability under braking, turn-in effort, headshake, wheelies, so on and so forth.

BUT...whether that same few mm makes a tangible difference to any particular individual depends on their pace, experience, feel, etc.

In some cases 2-3mm will net in absolutely no tangible difference in the riding experience/enjoyment. But in other cases, 2-3mm can completely transform an entire weekend.
 
in MotoGP, geometry changes are made in extremely small increments. So when you hear Rossi in an interview saying they finally got the bike feeling right, it very well may have been a 1mm change somewhere.

The BMW S1000RR also went through a small incremental geometry change from the '10 to the '12, and I felt it instantly. It went from large pig to piglet in terms of handling :p
 
wilkson said:
Placebo effect in most cases .
People get excited about new stuff .
Click to expand...

I also completely agree with this. The placebo effect is stronger with motorcycles than probably anything. How many times have we seen somebody say they installed their slip-on, or new air filter, or spark plugs etc and were like "bike is so much better now, huge difference". When in reality, those things might have added 2hp and nobody can feel 2hp when you already have 180hp.

People have to justify purchases, it is human nature. Nobody will spend $25k and then be like "eh, feels the same".
 
When i went from the 1199 to 1299 i knew that they changed the steering head angle and noticed the quicker steering instantly. What i didnt know is that they changed the swingarm to -4 but i did notice more stability on the rear. Although not perfect to my liking but it was better than the 1199. When i was done test driving the 1299 i inquired about the stability of the rear end they told me that is was -4. So i dont think its a placebo effect much like when i get a new set of golf clubs.
 
kismetcapitan said:
in MotoGP, geometry changes are made in extremely small increments. So when you hear Rossi in an interview saying they finally got the bike feeling right, it very well may have been a 1mm change somewhere.

The BMW S1000RR also went through a small incremental geometry change from the '10 to the '12, and I felt it instantly. It went from large pig to piglet in terms of handling :p
Click to expand...

I think the new found success of the Panigale in WSBK comes from small changes like these amongst others. Us mortals may not appreciate it, but the riding gods like Chaz does.
 
Last edited:
Just to be clear, with -4mm/lower swingarm you all mean increased or decreased ride height?
 
-4 will transfers more weight to the rear under acceleration increasing traction, certainly for me road riding I cannot feel it. At the track on slicks in pro riders hands I'm sure it's noticeable
 
ScrapperX said:
When i went from the 1199 to 1299 i knew that they changed the steering head angle and noticed the quicker steering instantly. What i didnt know is that they changed the swingarm to -4 but i did notice more stability on the rear. Although not perfect to my liking but it was better than the 1199. When i was done test driving the 1299 i inquired about the stability of the rear end they told me that is was -4. So i dont think its a placebo effect much like when i get a new set of golf clubs.
Click to expand...

Where did you "test drive" the 1299 that you instantly noticed the differences ?
 
ScrapperX said:
When i went from the 1199 to 1299 i knew that they changed the steering head angle and noticed the quicker steering instantly. What i didnt know is that they changed the swingarm to -4 but i did notice more stability on the rear. Although not perfect to my liking but it was better than the 1199. When i was done test driving the 1299 i inquired about the stability of the rear end they told me that is was -4. So i dont think its a placebo effect much like when i get a new set of golf clubs.
Click to expand...

You know the same feeling can be had by putting on new tires. If your tires aren't new, then the profile is likely altered. The new bike having new tires could easily give the same feeling of quicker steering.
 
There ain't no free lunch. Unless the pro racers that tuned the 1199 Panigale also agree with the -4mm pivot being a huge deal, I'm not going to worry about it. Unless and adjustable R swingarm pops up on Ebay.

You'll have more weight transfer under accel for better grip, but engine torque isn't shoving the tire down into the pavement as hard as it used to. So it's give and take. The bike should wheelie on exit less with the 1199 setup as well, IMO.

Just like the head angle might be nicer on entry, it can't be nicer on exit. You always have to give somewhere, to get somewhere else, when it comes to suspension setup.
 
Last edited:
wilkson said:
Where did you "test drive" the 1299 that you instantly noticed the differences ?
Click to expand...

I notice the quicker steering imediately on the Snake. Any track around here doesnt come close to checking out the steering and rear grip compared to the Snake at Muholland. Ducati even bring their demo bikes to the Snake so you can test out the handling.
 
ScrapperX said:
I notice the quicker steering imediately on the Snake. Any track around here doesnt come close to checking out the steering and rear grip compared to the Snake at Muholland. Ducati even bring their demo bikes to the Snake so you can test out the handling.
Click to expand...

No offense but 99.5% of riders wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two chassis on the "snake"...... if they can, its a phenomenon called Placebo

On a closed course, may be higher percentage of rider would be able to tell for sure

Congrats to the .5%..by that math they belong in WSBK if not in MotoGP

:)
 
Chaotic said:
You know the same feeling can be had by putting on new tires. If your tires aren't new, then the profile is likely altered. The new bike having new tires could easily give the same feeling of quicker steering.
Click to expand...

I know the difference between new tires, worn tires, geometry setups and suspension setups. Ive been riding bikes for 39 years, club raced for 12. built countless bikes from the ground up. Trust me even a newbe rider notice the difference with the same tires/wheels that was on my 1199 swapped over to the 1299. The first thing he said to me that it steers quicker and he isnt even into bikes he just a natural.

Ive been mulling over this when I had my 1199 to change the offset.

1199 Magnesium Gabelbrücke | Ducati & Aprilia-Tuning Kämna
 

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