- Joined
- Dec 19, 2012
- Messages
- 128
- Location
- Netherlands, Norway
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- Joined
- Dec 19, 2012
- Messages
- 128
- Location
- Netherlands, Norway
That is quite similair to mine, then it does not look that bad. Got mine done with rexxer at Biggelaar with Akrap. And agree with you, when it comes to the max RPM, it is no sense to pull it to the top, can get more with the torque out of that bike.
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1,044
- Location
- belgium
AIM kit went on - takes quit some skills to get this set up properly and out of the way as the designers did not intend to put it on .. Moto Rapido knows how.... the attention to detail is stunning.. we preferred not to install the heaviest part ( EVO4 logger) at the front so not to load it even more than it already is...
look how the gyro gets tucked away in the subframe... it was a pleasure to see it grow...
on top of the DDA set it should measure
lean
acceleration
braking
time on the wall
GPS timing logger
GPS timing on dash
suspension travel front and rear
no place to hide now...
look how the gyro gets tucked away in the subframe... it was a pleasure to see it grow...
on top of the DDA set it should measure
lean
acceleration
braking
time on the wall
GPS timing logger
GPS timing on dash
suspension travel front and rear
no place to hide now...
Attachments
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1,044
- Location
- belgium
Off to setup…
Time for some humbling honesty.
This time it may be more interesting to start with what we did, what happened in general and conclude that we totally messed up the setup as far as we could. Then the engine decided to rattle the nuts of the bolts that sticks it up to the frame and up .... creek we were.
Did we do an lot of things right, setup – known to be the most important part of all - we screwed up big time.. result : big loss of confidence, times not evolving or going up and an general sense of confusion…
So there is a lot to learn from the mistakes I made and learned from at high cost.
What happened? The project got the mental go ahead December 2012 and started in jan last year with the order on the R. then it was decided to go ‘ all the way’ as to forks and brakes and that needed an awful lot of sourcing of a lot of kit.. fortunately that worked well, but then looks took priority and the bike got delivered end of march and then finished early may…
Then we made our first mistake not to take a base measurement sheet and to have the forks measured. As the forks came from Althea ( rumoured) there was a spec sheet but I did not pay attention and I couldn’t read it anyway. On the back the stock TTX remained with its 90kg spring. Luc had already installed an aftermarket TTX and the fact that those come with a 95kg spring and a shorter span ( lowering ride height) passed unnoticed till September.
Then I got lulled in a false sense of security when the first outings I did at Spa where I astonished the whole garage by doing times I did not hold possible. 2:52 in my first ever ride in session 3 was like WAAAW.. the same at every track I went to. Got up in the upper half of fast group in session 3 … it was like a system…
And then it went downhill… I found that those times were like hitting a wall and I could not sense any progress…
As I had figured out that the whole bike was doing ok but hadn’t done the setup , off I went to an expert to have a look. He had done my 999R of which is was very happy. What happened was that the bike went from 220mm air suspension ( chamber?) to a rumoured 180. And the 10KG springs were brought down to 9.75 by swapping a 10kg for a 9.5 kg on one side. I asked for the rear to be stiffened ( had worked well on the 999R and the Multi ) but the expert opted to put the linkage on P.
As he had no reference, he left the geometry as it was.. then we made the same mistake again by not asking/demanding a spec sheet for the changes. Not for the suspension but neither for the geometry. Another good question not asked : are the measurements of the oil level taken with or without the spring inside… all in all : BIG mistake.
The first time I rode the bike like that, I just added 3 seconds at spa and had to push it to get there. Luc had noticed that the back was pumping when I got on it and that it would wave more on top of the Radillon. The bike felt itchy going from side to side and the pretty rock solid behaviour in the turns was gone. Then confusion set in and I made the same mistake for a Third time: I did not measure nor check the settings on the forks or rear. A mistake that would show to be utterly costly.
Having very little experience , and not doubting the people who worked on the bike, I thought it was all in my head and decided to go for it. The result of that being the front letting go while hitting the curb ever so slightly on a beautifully sunny and warm day and the loss of my chastity as a gravel virgin. I’ll add the vid and pic on my way out there again for info sake..
Still ignorant, focus was put to get the bike back to riding condition and the thing we should have focused on most – setup – got to the backburner again. In the meantime, days were spent adding other exhausts , getting mapped and dynoed and carbon painted.. wrong exhausts were bought, wrong radiatiors got bought . But not 1 minute decent attention to setup. I took the blame on me for bungling up rider position on the bike and simply stating that I leaned it over too much - which I probably did – and the fact that I did hit the curb. These still probably are the most contributing factors but the point is : no attention for SETUP. Happy to have the bike ready for Lemans. Off we went to dicover all those wonderful tracks. But one thing was gone: ending up in the better half of fast group. Blamed it on ‘crash fright’ but still no structural attention to setup. Why do I say structural : because Luc did change the P back to F. Which had stabilising effect but not to the lever I had before the changes. As the end of the season approached, I sort of settled in a mode that I accepted the bike as it was and the times I got out of her.. The doubts lingered though and got me worried when I noticed that it would tend to run wide when I pushed it a bit. Other guys would get out on the gas much ealier , would take 5 meters and stay in front of me despite of the power advantage I definetly had. Again, blaming it on my weight – even tough I lost 42 pounds – on the length of the throttle not letting met get to 100% easily. On everything but not on what I should have blamed : setup. As the forks did not close all the way we eased the preload on the forks to 0 and Still : we persisted in our ignorance by not measuring. It wasn’t till mugello that we found out that the rebound was at 16 on 1 side and 0 at the other.. trying to fix the running wide – which at mugello gets very obvious in the many long chicanes – we finally ended up at 8L8R rebound and the mess was complete… given it was a race training, I knew I would not be on the pace- far from - but it still was quit humbling.. long forgotten were the good openers at the beginning of the year.
What I was not aware of was that by then, the engine had decided to come loose and that I was doing 285KPH on that long straight with a loose engine held up at the front by the radiator fixings.. now I know that must have contributed to that funny feeling and sound of CLUNC when under braking and the forks chattering all over.
Then the season closed.. ideas for winter development got coming and it was decided we’ll do the SPA 6H endurance race. And then it became clear: It was time for the bike to reach the end of its development. As of day 1 next season, no more time spent on exhausts, mappings, engine tunes or mappings. Full focus was to be given on setup and rider development. To make it to the SPA 6h. 7 seconds will have to be found without risking life and limb or that beautiful bike.
I still cherish the moment when we sat down with Steve Moore to discuss this winter program and the topic of setup came up. I never had such a clear explanation of what does what and how it ineracts. We talked Progressive , Fix and regressive linkages, what oil does in a fork and what not to do. We also discusses tracks and their specific setup s .Steve was kind enough to let us in on some very elaborate testing they had done during their BSB years. For which I’m still gratefull. It was decided that – calculated to my wheight – springs would be changed and a base setup would be applied based on Donington whit its sweeper Craner curves and some tight braking areas.
Then I got the pics of the bolts floating in the airbox and the engine hanging 3 cm from the frame and that was not well for the confidence..
Then when the forks came out I was pretty gutted to hear that first of all the level of the oil was 148/155 – so not even – and that the numbers I had gotten were with the springs in.. so not only were all readings not right, the difference was so huge that Steve could only decide it was a very very bad setup. One that had as major contribution to dive under braking only to go somewhere where there was no room left for any suspending to be done. So sloppy under braking and rock hard mid corner.
Add the lack of rebound damping with the one side not done and it’s the recipy for losing it mid corner.. Now does that ring a bell? Yep indeed. Losing the front at SPA. What would finally be a 8K mistake. Not to be added the tendency to lean backward when getting of the brakes because of the P settings without adding a stiffer spring. Now I think of it that combo makes for a rocking chair. Because setting it to P will stiffen it up in the end. But it will not be as stiff till 45 % of the travel and will start way and way softer. On a spring that is meant for street riding. And is 5KG lighter than the same shock in aftermarket delivery.
Can I go blame someone else? I sure have a right to be disappointed in the expert I used. He got it way of centre and sloppy. But most of all I am to blame for not doing what was needed: Focussing on setup as I should have. I console myself by knowing one can’t do everything in 1 season
I therefore now am over the moon with the fact that I know the bike has reached a point that I wanted to get to when I and we all started this journey: to have it developed to the tilt of the sane. Pushed , yes but still sanely. The engine will not suffer as it will rarely go over 11K – I’ll be able to put the output and torque to good use as the short throttle is mapped to that torque curve.
So now I’ll be able to spend all my focus on setup. The datalogging will allow me to do so in a structured way. Very capable of seeing what goes well and what doesn’t. it will also add to the confidence I’ll need to achieve my goals and will tell me what I do wrongly so I can improve.
And I hope that the PROSHIFT system will take away some of the physical burden and risk by avoiding having to shift gears under lean by foot. Something I’ve experienced trouble with all season long, leading to missing gears twice a session. The heightened and widened seat should give me more legroom and grip.. all to be able to do the best body potistioning I can do..
So now the gear will be better than good, it’s all up to me.. no place to hide now
LOL !
Panigale 1199R onboard SPA Crash - YouTube
Time for some humbling honesty.
This time it may be more interesting to start with what we did, what happened in general and conclude that we totally messed up the setup as far as we could. Then the engine decided to rattle the nuts of the bolts that sticks it up to the frame and up .... creek we were.
Did we do an lot of things right, setup – known to be the most important part of all - we screwed up big time.. result : big loss of confidence, times not evolving or going up and an general sense of confusion…
So there is a lot to learn from the mistakes I made and learned from at high cost.
What happened? The project got the mental go ahead December 2012 and started in jan last year with the order on the R. then it was decided to go ‘ all the way’ as to forks and brakes and that needed an awful lot of sourcing of a lot of kit.. fortunately that worked well, but then looks took priority and the bike got delivered end of march and then finished early may…
Then we made our first mistake not to take a base measurement sheet and to have the forks measured. As the forks came from Althea ( rumoured) there was a spec sheet but I did not pay attention and I couldn’t read it anyway. On the back the stock TTX remained with its 90kg spring. Luc had already installed an aftermarket TTX and the fact that those come with a 95kg spring and a shorter span ( lowering ride height) passed unnoticed till September.
Then I got lulled in a false sense of security when the first outings I did at Spa where I astonished the whole garage by doing times I did not hold possible. 2:52 in my first ever ride in session 3 was like WAAAW.. the same at every track I went to. Got up in the upper half of fast group in session 3 … it was like a system…
And then it went downhill… I found that those times were like hitting a wall and I could not sense any progress…
As I had figured out that the whole bike was doing ok but hadn’t done the setup , off I went to an expert to have a look. He had done my 999R of which is was very happy. What happened was that the bike went from 220mm air suspension ( chamber?) to a rumoured 180. And the 10KG springs were brought down to 9.75 by swapping a 10kg for a 9.5 kg on one side. I asked for the rear to be stiffened ( had worked well on the 999R and the Multi ) but the expert opted to put the linkage on P.
As he had no reference, he left the geometry as it was.. then we made the same mistake again by not asking/demanding a spec sheet for the changes. Not for the suspension but neither for the geometry. Another good question not asked : are the measurements of the oil level taken with or without the spring inside… all in all : BIG mistake.
The first time I rode the bike like that, I just added 3 seconds at spa and had to push it to get there. Luc had noticed that the back was pumping when I got on it and that it would wave more on top of the Radillon. The bike felt itchy going from side to side and the pretty rock solid behaviour in the turns was gone. Then confusion set in and I made the same mistake for a Third time: I did not measure nor check the settings on the forks or rear. A mistake that would show to be utterly costly.
Having very little experience , and not doubting the people who worked on the bike, I thought it was all in my head and decided to go for it. The result of that being the front letting go while hitting the curb ever so slightly on a beautifully sunny and warm day and the loss of my chastity as a gravel virgin. I’ll add the vid and pic on my way out there again for info sake..
Still ignorant, focus was put to get the bike back to riding condition and the thing we should have focused on most – setup – got to the backburner again. In the meantime, days were spent adding other exhausts , getting mapped and dynoed and carbon painted.. wrong exhausts were bought, wrong radiatiors got bought . But not 1 minute decent attention to setup. I took the blame on me for bungling up rider position on the bike and simply stating that I leaned it over too much - which I probably did – and the fact that I did hit the curb. These still probably are the most contributing factors but the point is : no attention for SETUP. Happy to have the bike ready for Lemans. Off we went to dicover all those wonderful tracks. But one thing was gone: ending up in the better half of fast group. Blamed it on ‘crash fright’ but still no structural attention to setup. Why do I say structural : because Luc did change the P back to F. Which had stabilising effect but not to the lever I had before the changes. As the end of the season approached, I sort of settled in a mode that I accepted the bike as it was and the times I got out of her.. The doubts lingered though and got me worried when I noticed that it would tend to run wide when I pushed it a bit. Other guys would get out on the gas much ealier , would take 5 meters and stay in front of me despite of the power advantage I definetly had. Again, blaming it on my weight – even tough I lost 42 pounds – on the length of the throttle not letting met get to 100% easily. On everything but not on what I should have blamed : setup. As the forks did not close all the way we eased the preload on the forks to 0 and Still : we persisted in our ignorance by not measuring. It wasn’t till mugello that we found out that the rebound was at 16 on 1 side and 0 at the other.. trying to fix the running wide – which at mugello gets very obvious in the many long chicanes – we finally ended up at 8L8R rebound and the mess was complete… given it was a race training, I knew I would not be on the pace- far from - but it still was quit humbling.. long forgotten were the good openers at the beginning of the year.
What I was not aware of was that by then, the engine had decided to come loose and that I was doing 285KPH on that long straight with a loose engine held up at the front by the radiator fixings.. now I know that must have contributed to that funny feeling and sound of CLUNC when under braking and the forks chattering all over.
Then the season closed.. ideas for winter development got coming and it was decided we’ll do the SPA 6H endurance race. And then it became clear: It was time for the bike to reach the end of its development. As of day 1 next season, no more time spent on exhausts, mappings, engine tunes or mappings. Full focus was to be given on setup and rider development. To make it to the SPA 6h. 7 seconds will have to be found without risking life and limb or that beautiful bike.
I still cherish the moment when we sat down with Steve Moore to discuss this winter program and the topic of setup came up. I never had such a clear explanation of what does what and how it ineracts. We talked Progressive , Fix and regressive linkages, what oil does in a fork and what not to do. We also discusses tracks and their specific setup s .Steve was kind enough to let us in on some very elaborate testing they had done during their BSB years. For which I’m still gratefull. It was decided that – calculated to my wheight – springs would be changed and a base setup would be applied based on Donington whit its sweeper Craner curves and some tight braking areas.
Then I got the pics of the bolts floating in the airbox and the engine hanging 3 cm from the frame and that was not well for the confidence..
Then when the forks came out I was pretty gutted to hear that first of all the level of the oil was 148/155 – so not even – and that the numbers I had gotten were with the springs in.. so not only were all readings not right, the difference was so huge that Steve could only decide it was a very very bad setup. One that had as major contribution to dive under braking only to go somewhere where there was no room left for any suspending to be done. So sloppy under braking and rock hard mid corner.
Add the lack of rebound damping with the one side not done and it’s the recipy for losing it mid corner.. Now does that ring a bell? Yep indeed. Losing the front at SPA. What would finally be a 8K mistake. Not to be added the tendency to lean backward when getting of the brakes because of the P settings without adding a stiffer spring. Now I think of it that combo makes for a rocking chair. Because setting it to P will stiffen it up in the end. But it will not be as stiff till 45 % of the travel and will start way and way softer. On a spring that is meant for street riding. And is 5KG lighter than the same shock in aftermarket delivery.
Can I go blame someone else? I sure have a right to be disappointed in the expert I used. He got it way of centre and sloppy. But most of all I am to blame for not doing what was needed: Focussing on setup as I should have. I console myself by knowing one can’t do everything in 1 season
I therefore now am over the moon with the fact that I know the bike has reached a point that I wanted to get to when I and we all started this journey: to have it developed to the tilt of the sane. Pushed , yes but still sanely. The engine will not suffer as it will rarely go over 11K – I’ll be able to put the output and torque to good use as the short throttle is mapped to that torque curve.
So now I’ll be able to spend all my focus on setup. The datalogging will allow me to do so in a structured way. Very capable of seeing what goes well and what doesn’t. it will also add to the confidence I’ll need to achieve my goals and will tell me what I do wrongly so I can improve.
And I hope that the PROSHIFT system will take away some of the physical burden and risk by avoiding having to shift gears under lean by foot. Something I’ve experienced trouble with all season long, leading to missing gears twice a session. The heightened and widened seat should give me more legroom and grip.. all to be able to do the best body potistioning I can do..
So now the gear will be better than good, it’s all up to me.. no place to hide now
LOL !
Panigale 1199R onboard SPA Crash - YouTube
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2012
- Messages
- 573
- Location
- Irvine, CA
The changes needed to make this bike work well are small but significant. Your message is a bit confusing, but it sounds like you might be on the right track now, correct? Let me know if you need some help. I've helped a few other members here and some other folks and they all seem to be happy.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2013
- Messages
- 3,352
- Location
- Los Angeles
Which forks are those Ohlins?
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
- Messages
- 1,187
- Location
- Albuquerque, NM & Bavaria Germany
Nothing wrong with that if you are in pursuit of excellence.I guess i suffered from wanting too much too soon .
If your are afraid of making mistakes you will not advance toward your goal.
......from a wise ass German
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1,044
- Location
- belgium
Double, they are FGR100 gasforks roumored to come from Althea 2011 team supposedly from checa s second bike .. I m not sure i believe this but they are The top spec wsbk forks . It s basically The same TEC from The gp bikes but those are still developed further to The needs of The rider. Forks don t come any better .. If you use them' properly . Which Goes for anything.
It s always like that with me . First get the gear sorted and then focus On using it
It s always like that with me . First get the gear sorted and then focus On using it
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2013
- Messages
- 1,037
- Location
- New York
I just want to thank you for your honesty. Lots of guys I'm sure would rather hide their screw ups rather than share for knowledge, or be ridiculed for ignorance. I definitely wish you luck and hope your confidence goes up and lap times down.
Roadracerx has worked with me a little with really positive results, so I can attest to his clams.
Personally, I'm still running into side to side pumping after picking the bike up off the corner. After I come in the rear tire pressure is 26psi, (running NTECs and leaving the pit with 23psi). I reduce it go back out and it calms down. Not sure if I'm riding the rear too much, and if I need to change my style and/or reduce the tire pressure down to like 21psi hot to quit having to stop the session to correct the pressure change.
Would love to know what others are doing. This is the first time I've ever had this type of issue with rear tire pressure.
Thanks.
Roadracerx has worked with me a little with really positive results, so I can attest to his clams.
Personally, I'm still running into side to side pumping after picking the bike up off the corner. After I come in the rear tire pressure is 26psi, (running NTECs and leaving the pit with 23psi). I reduce it go back out and it calms down. Not sure if I'm riding the rear too much, and if I need to change my style and/or reduce the tire pressure down to like 21psi hot to quit having to stop the session to correct the pressure change.
Would love to know what others are doing. This is the first time I've ever had this type of issue with rear tire pressure.
Thanks.
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1,044
- Location
- belgium
tx marmoot.... i think it fits the bike having lost his demeanour after the changes... it wiggled big time at hockenheim as well... problem now is it's almost impossible to trace the problem back as that much whas changed without systematic approach... so mentally i'm preparing for a complete reset.. and i'll trust the likes of Steve Moore.. 2 years of BSB on that machine should have leraned him something i can work with...
as i just told him : i should no be utterly happy with where i got : good drivability (torque and short throttle response, pick up ) and more power than i can handle. all in a lighter package than original. and with the right kit to do some decent data work when talking riderdevelopment and the best suspension to carry it all.. and she looks a million dollars.... what more can a man ask for.. ?
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1,044
- Location
- belgium
tx ! i'm confident on the confidence.. and laptimes
23-26 seem within the range ...21 reads pritty low.. are you going faster lately ? putting more pressure on the rear?
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2013
- Messages
- 1,037
- Location
- New York
tx ! i'm confident on the confidence.. and laptimes
I have picked up my pace a bit, but for the Air temps for this time of year, a 3psi jump is quite a jump.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Messages
- 2,899
- Location
- australia
Seems normal to me .
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