Jarel. You obviously have a much broader scope into the industry and these bikes than the majority here. I try and understand where the tech is but I'm very much a novice. What are your thoughts on the progression? All of the other progressive programs have had to deviate to nextgen tech to get more HP, higher RPMs etc. artificial aspiration is out. They from what I understand are not exploring pneumatics. CID is relatively fixed. Electronics, sure you can optimize within the limitations of your design. More exotic internal materials and perhaps ceramic applications are expensive. The Koeingsegge FreeValve tech is impressive. It substantially reduces engine size, significantly raises valve train speed and allows individual ECU control of each valve. Where do you think Ducati can pull nextgen performance out of another 999cc normally aspirated motor without employing some new tech. We always here "derived from MotoGP technology" I'm not sure what that even means anymore other than slick sales and marketing. Thanks for the input.
2018 Ducati V4 Its real, well at least the motor
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@Endodoc: They can get more power out of it by having a technology called 4 cylinders. Probably round (well it is Ducati so maybe not exactly round). With all that extra GP derived power it will probably make noise and require some sort of combustable material to make it go. Thats all I have.
Adam, you rascal you. I see you modified my poor attempt at humor. My post read.
"Here is some news. Its going to have 4 cylinders. Probably round (well it is Ducati so maybe not exactly round). It will make noise and require some sort of combustable material to run. Thats all I have"
Now they can get more power out of it if they do a 1300cc 4 cylinder but 9??cc?, I don't hear anything revolutionary is in the mix here. Sometimes you get to a point where your stuck without doing something radical. Aprilia claims 250hp on their race spec bike, 215 on their SB motor and 204HP on the SS all (V4 9??cc). The hight HP bike gets a Race spec ECU, exhaust, hand assembled motor (which includes port matching, polishing, matched flow rates etc) race spec induction system, hi comp pistons and race gas. Their SS motor is going to be close to the street bike motor which brings us right back to where we are. Were getting a V4 9?? Ducati motor that has to pass emissions and has to be 9?? cc. I am trying to figure out how Im going to get 200 RWHP from the new motor. If we are a hair short of 190hp on the new GSXR then we need to be in that range but I guess my point is that were already hovering there with all the manufacturers. There just doesn't seem to be anything on the horizon that is going to take the these motors to the next level at that displacement while meeting DOT #s on pump gas. The desmo motor was what 170hp? Thats not going to cut it. I get the homologation but it would be nice to have options. Look at the Kawasaki H2. Imagine that approach in a ZX10R. Thats innovation and thats exciting. A new platform that gives me within 1% of the platform I already have, year after year not so much. Indy was relatively stuck with Offy, Drake, Cosworth etc all doing monkey see monkey do. Granatelli comes in with the turbine and really stirred the pot to the point of banning the motor. 1996 Penske comes in with a pushrod Mercedes motor that was radically different and to this day holds the speed record at the 500 (239+). Thats a record going on 21 years now. We need some new tech in SB powerplants. Something other than 20lbs of wiring and electronic doo dads that no one can figure out how to work on.
"Here is some news. Its going to have 4 cylinders. Probably round (well it is Ducati so maybe not exactly round). It will make noise and require some sort of combustable material to run. Thats all I have"
Now they can get more power out of it if they do a 1300cc 4 cylinder but 9??cc?, I don't hear anything revolutionary is in the mix here. Sometimes you get to a point where your stuck without doing something radical. Aprilia claims 250hp on their race spec bike, 215 on their SB motor and 204HP on the SS all (V4 9??cc). The hight HP bike gets a Race spec ECU, exhaust, hand assembled motor (which includes port matching, polishing, matched flow rates etc) race spec induction system, hi comp pistons and race gas. Their SS motor is going to be close to the street bike motor which brings us right back to where we are. Were getting a V4 9?? Ducati motor that has to pass emissions and has to be 9?? cc. I am trying to figure out how Im going to get 200 RWHP from the new motor. If we are a hair short of 190hp on the new GSXR then we need to be in that range but I guess my point is that were already hovering there with all the manufacturers. There just doesn't seem to be anything on the horizon that is going to take the these motors to the next level at that displacement while meeting DOT #s on pump gas. The desmo motor was what 170hp? Thats not going to cut it. I get the homologation but it would be nice to have options. Look at the Kawasaki H2. Imagine that approach in a ZX10R. Thats innovation and thats exciting. A new platform that gives me within 1% of the platform I already have, year after year not so much. Indy was relatively stuck with Offy, Drake, Cosworth etc all doing monkey see monkey do. Granatelli comes in with the turbine and really stirred the pot to the point of banning the motor. 1996 Penske comes in with a pushrod Mercedes motor that was radically different and to this day holds the speed record at the 500 (239+). Thats a record going on 21 years now. We need some new tech in SB powerplants. Something other than 20lbs of wiring and electronic doo dads that no one can figure out how to work on.
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The Italian magazine article earlier in the thread suggests that it will be along side the twin? Maybe?
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So Jarel, what will they release in winter 2017 spring of 2018? Stick with the 1299 as-is (with some minor tweaks?)
When do you think the V4 is coming out? Or is it?
When do you think the V4 is coming out? Or is it?
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90 percent sure he's not telling us, if he knows. Hell, I bugged the guys at Motocorsa recently about it and they all shook their heads and pointed out the last time they got stupid with new models coming out.
jarelj
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I have no idea, Ducati doesn't release any new model information to dealers until the dealer meeting in Sept/Oct and then at that point the information is under embargo until the EICMA show in November.
my guess:
continue with 1299 panigale base and S panigale, frameless design, Twin
introduce a permanent Desmo V4 (L4) 1000 cc high reving, framed bike to replace the Panigale R, this would be their top of line reference model, try to get the WSBK crown back
continue with 1299 panigale base and S panigale, frameless design, Twin
introduce a permanent Desmo V4 (L4) 1000 cc high reving, framed bike to replace the Panigale R, this would be their top of line reference model, try to get the WSBK crown back
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Close but no cigar.
OK, not really that close
Hello TJ, hows the new position going?Are you coming to the Silverstone Ducati trackday if you're in the UK?
They are making this switch because the current twins can't produce competitive power and incorporate euro 4 standards. As it is they got an extension to stay on euro 3. So they are going to make more than 500 V4's or L4's. The trick is getting the weight, power, and costs within line.
Huh, I hate to burst your bubble but...... THE 1299 SL IS EURO 4 COMPLIANT!!
Straight from Ducati's SL web page.
"This incredible marvel of engineering is most likely never to be repeated in a street-legal twin-cylinder motorcycle. With a bore of 116 mm and stroke of and 60.8 mm, the displacement is now 1285 cc and, thanks to specifically developed components and materials, an unprecedented maximum power output of 215 hp at 11,000 rpm* is obtained while being fully Euro IV compliant. A non-street-legal racing exhaust kit is delivered together with the motorcycle, and guarantees an increase in peak power of 5 hp and a reduction in weight of 4 kg compared to the Euro IV exhaust."
I think the main reasons for the change to a V4 revolves around...
1) Packaging a smaller size "footprint" engine to allow engineers to develop a more capable race designed chassis.
2) Centralized mass location
3) More race time between full teardowns and rebuilds. This lowers mechanical downtime and maintenance cost, both on and off the track.
4) Trickle down tech from Moto Gp team and the marketing that comes with it.
4) A platform they can make Euro 5 compliant a couple years down the road...
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Weight, power and..."costs." SL is two out of three. If costs are not an issue sure, make it Euro 4 and keep the competitive power. The Panigale 1299 is currently being sold under a "end of series" waiver. At the end of that waiver, they need a mass market plan for the superbike to be Euro4 and Euro 5 which comes in about 2021.
Your 5 points are equally important.
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It's coming! I saw them doing some shakedown tests at Suzuka with Bigfoot test riding it.
I really can't see any way that Ducati can keep the Panigale past 2018/19 and still make it Euro 5 compliant for both noise and emissions. The V4 is really the only option that they can grow into and develop over the next decade.
As far as cost of the new V4 engine compared to the twin? I don't think it will be much cheaper to produce, especially when the future "R" model engine arrives. Keep in mind your adding two more forged pistons and Ti Rods into the mix. However, it will be much more reliable and MUCH easier to maintain.
I'll miss the light weight though... I don't think Ducati can get within 20lbs of the Panigale. Maybe the limited future SL editions will dip under the 400 lbs but by then those bikes will be over six figures.
I've always been a big twin guy and so there will always be a Panigale in my garage as long as I can still ride a bike ....but I also like the Aprilia RSV4 RF so a Ducati version will be a tempting addition.
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I can't speak to the maintenance aspect. But spinning two pistons the size of milk jugs at 12,000 RPM puts a ridiculous amount of force on the entire engine. I have no idea how Ducati pulled that off on anything that has a warranty. I'm sure Endo or someone else here is probably smart enough to be able to calculate the actual forces involved. But even allowing for a much higher rev limit, I suspect 4 smaller pistons are going to be a lot more friendly to the rest of the components.
Hello TJ, hows the new position going?Are you coming to the Silverstone Ducati trackday if you're in the UK?
Hi, new position's great. Track day at Silverstone, hmmm, if I can get my bike up and running I'd like to! Will depend on schedule too as these next few months are crazy with travel for work.
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