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Here is my opinion - I want guys like Rich and Tuneboy, and others in here. I would prefer more engineers, developers, etc in the forum. So I really don't understand why a few idiots are trying to drive them out. No matter if you want the exhaust (or anything else) from him/them - the more people who know deeply about a product, the better. You guys are taking him to task because certain performance characteristics haven't been met. I don't see anyone taking Ducati to task because they haven't hit the 195hp DIN or SAE that Ducati claim or that sometimes Termi slips outperform the full either. . .

But thats not the point. The goal is to have more knowledge on here. And whether that knowledge is from an engineer at Ducati, a product developer at Austin, or even a technician at Honda - it doesn't matter. You guys treat people selling farkles who know nothing about the engineering underneath and yet give someone who is trying to do the right thing and provide information this much grief ?

Look the reality with most exhausts is that you might gain some performance from a decent tune. The jumps aren't going to be huge and there are huge variances between bikes, countries, dyno's, etc. The termi's aren't a bad exhaust for a reason - and any improvements are going to be incremental. We all pretty much know this. While I understand that some may be disappointed in whatever those results might be, the reality is that you really wanted those gains, but probably also fully knew that it probably wasn't going to be that large. If you want to believe marketing, you can drop an air filter in and get 7hp gain just like that.. . . c'mon.

Disclaimer: I have zero interest in Rich's exhaust - before or after these results. I do have an interest in having him and his knowledge stay in this forum as he's contributed a helluva lot more in content than quite a few others here who have no real business here (not interested in buying the exhaust and not contributing any sort of content either). Now, thats not saying anyone is not entitled to their opinion either, but whats been posted here isn't about opinions. I'd take knowledge over brainless idiocy any day.
 
Have I missed a chart from another AR owner that replicates the AR results?
 
Correct, it has nil affect on sales

I think you kinda shot yourselve in the foot here for your lawsuit. In order to sue, you would have to show it is affecting your business. Not a lawyer, but that's how I remember it.
 
Here is my opinion - I want guys like Rich and Tuneboy, and others in here. I would prefer more engineers, developers, etc in the forum. So I really don't understand why a few idiots are trying to drive them out. No matter if you want the exhaust (or anything else) from him/them - the more people who know deeply about a product, the better. You guys are taking him to task because certain performance characteristics haven't been met. I don't see anyone taking Ducati to task because they haven't hit the 195hp DIN or SAE that Ducati claim or that sometimes Termi slips outperform the full either. . .

But thats not the point. The goal is to have more knowledge on here. And whether that knowledge is from an engineer at Ducati, a product developer at Austin, or even a technician at Honda - it doesn't matter. You guys treat people selling farkles who know nothing about the engineering underneath and yet give someone who is trying to do the right thing and provide information this much grief ?

Look the reality with most exhausts is that you might gain some performance from a decent tune. The jumps aren't going to be huge and there are huge variances between bikes, countries, dyno's, etc. The termi's aren't a bad exhaust for a reason - and any improvements are going to be incremental. We all pretty much know this. While I understand that some may be disappointed in whatever those results might be, the reality is that you really wanted those gains, but probably also fully knew that it probably wasn't going to be that large. If you want to believe marketing, you can drop an air filter in and get 7hp gain just like that.. . . c'mon.

Disclaimer: I have zero interest in Rich's exhaust - before or after these results. I do have an interest in having him and his knowledge stay in this forum as he's contributed a helluva lot more in content than quite a few others here who have no real business here (not interested in buying the exhaust and not contributing any sort of content either). Now, thats not saying anyone is not entitled to their opinion either, but whats been posted here isn't about opinions. I'd take knowledge over brainless idiocy any day.

Their knowledge, along with any other commercial entity that chooses to engage, has to be taken in the context of their desire to sell product, they are not good samaritans. Equally you can't on one hand take a stance as a valuable contributor but then shrug off repeated product claims as 'buyer beware' as you seem to suggest above. Also as a community we should not threaten each other, that crosses a line that no amount of knowledge can justify. No special treatment.
 
What exactly is a forum for if you can't discuss things with words and arguments? I'm the first to admit this has dragged on far too long. But it could have ended days ago, and everyone would be far more satisfied, if AR would address the damn situation with new information. I'll say it again though, I think is thread is very valuable to prospective buyers. We've all learned a great deal about this bike and what needs to be done to optimize performance. We still don't know much about the AR exhaust, but its not for lack of trying.

IMHO, it would look better (for everyone), if AR had the chance to get something resolved before dragging it through 37 pages in a thread.

optimal route:
purchase, installation, test, happy customer.

semi optimal route:
purchase, installation, test, unhappy customer, contact vendor, fix problem, installation, test, sort of refund, happy customer, write on the forum how it went and make people smarter

this route:
purchase, installation, test, unhappy customer, start thread, ... well you know the rest...






self reflection, control of emotions, and so on...

and don't tell me "my money, my money". every government around the globe is wasting every taxpayers' money - who cares?
 
Here is my opinion - I want guys like Rich and Tuneboy, and others in here. I would prefer more engineers, developers, etc in the forum. So I really don't understand why a few idiots are trying to drive them out. No matter if you want the exhaust (or anything else) from him/them - the more people who know deeply about a product, the better. You guys are taking him to task because certain performance characteristics haven't been met. I don't see anyone taking Ducati to task because they haven't hit the 195hp DIN or SAE that Ducati claim or that sometimes Termi slips outperform the full either. . .

But thats not the point. The goal is to have more knowledge on here. And whether that knowledge is from an engineer at Ducati, a product developer at Austin, or even a technician at Honda - it doesn't matter. You guys treat people selling farkles who know nothing about the engineering underneath and yet give someone who is trying to do the right thing and provide information this much grief ?

Look the reality with most exhausts is that you might gain some performance from a decent tune. The jumps aren't going to be huge and there are huge variances between bikes, countries, dyno's, etc. The termi's aren't a bad exhaust for a reason - and any improvements are going to be incremental. We all pretty much know this. While I understand that some may be disappointed in whatever those results might be, the reality is that you really wanted those gains, but probably also fully knew that it probably wasn't going to be that large. If you want to believe marketing, you can drop an air filter in and get 7hp gain just like that.. . . c'mon.

Disclaimer: I have zero interest in Rich's exhaust - before or after these results. I do have an interest in having him and his knowledge stay in this forum as he's contributed a helluva lot more in content than quite a few others here who have no real business here (not interested in buying the exhaust and not contributing any sort of content either). Now, thats not saying anyone is not entitled to their opinion either, but whats been posted here isn't about opinions. I'd take knowledge over brainless idiocy any day.


Hey Anthem...Just what content... that AR have contributed... are you referring to exactly??:confused:
 
Here is my opinion - I want guys like Rich and Tuneboy, and others in here. I would prefer more engineers, developers, etc in the forum. So I really don't understand why a few idiots are trying to drive them out. No matter if you want the exhaust (or anything else) from him/them - the more people who know deeply about a product, the better. You guys are taking him to task because certain performance characteristics haven't been met. I don't see anyone taking Ducati to task because they haven't hit the 195hp DIN or SAE that Ducati claim or that sometimes Termi slips outperform the full either. . .

But thats not the point. The goal is to have more knowledge on here. And whether that knowledge is from an engineer at Ducati, a product developer at Austin, or even a technician at Honda - it doesn't matter. You guys treat people selling farkles who know nothing about the engineering underneath and yet give someone who is trying to do the right thing and provide information this much grief ?

Look the reality with most exhausts is that you might gain some performance from a decent tune. The jumps aren't going to be huge and there are huge variances between bikes, countries, dyno's, etc. The termi's aren't a bad exhaust for a reason - and any improvements are going to be incremental. We all pretty much know this. While I understand that some may be disappointed in whatever those results might be, the reality is that you really wanted those gains, but probably also fully knew that it probably wasn't going to be that large. If you want to believe marketing, you can drop an air filter in and get 7hp gain just like that.. . . c'mon.

Disclaimer: I have zero interest in Rich's exhaust - before or after these results. I do have an interest in having him and his knowledge stay in this forum as he's contributed a helluva lot more in content than quite a few others here who have no real business here (not interested in buying the exhaust and not contributing any sort of content either). Now, thats not saying anyone is not entitled to their opinion either, but whats been posted here isn't about opinions. I'd take knowledge over brainless idiocy any day.

Interesting take. Help me understand what makes one an ..... when taking a company to task on questionable and seemingly unproven claims?
 
Their knowledge, along with any other commercial entity that chooses to engage, has to be taken in the context of their desire to sell product, they are not good samaritans. Equally you can't on one hand take a stance as a valuable contributor but then shrug off repeated product claims as 'buyer beware' as you seem to suggest above. Also as a community we should not threaten each other, that crosses a line that no amount of knowledge can justify. No special treatment.

Does it for commercial entities ? You have someone else selling an air filter that claims to gain 6hp for 1/20th the price you've spent on your exhaust. If you wanted hp gains (or performance increase), why hasn't EVERYONE jumped on that bandwagon ?

I'm not asking for buyer beware or special treatment. I know vendors are on here with some sort of commercial benefit in the back of their mind. But I do think that having them on here is better than not having them on here (or available). You can address and opine for whatever you want, but what transpired here wasn't what I call addressing issues and opining (they were for you but not many others).

For what its worth - I agree on the threats. Slander/Libel notwithstanding.
 
Does it for commercial entities ? You have someone else selling an air filter that claims to gain 6hp for 1/20th the price you've spent on your exhaust. If you wanted hp gains (or performance increase), why hasn't EVERYONE jumped on that bandwagon ?

I'm not asking for buyer beware or special treatment. I know vendors are on here with some sort of commercial benefit in the back of their mind. But I do think that having them on here is better than not having them on here (or available). You can address and opine for whatever you want, but what transpired here wasn't what I call addressing issues and opining (they were for you but not many others).

For what its worth - I agree on the threats. Slander/Libel notwithstanding.

I am surprised about the lack of attacks on the filter. It has even been posted on this very forum that it changed nothing, all over the internet, very little if any improvement as well. There, I slammed it. :)
 
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Does it for commercial entities ? You have someone else selling an air filter that claims to gain 6hp for 1/20th the price you've spent on your exhaust. If you wanted hp gains (or performance increase), why hasn't EVERYONE jumped on that bandwagon ?

I'm not asking for buyer beware or special treatment. I know vendors are on here with some sort of commercial benefit in the back of their mind. But I do think that having them on here is better than not having them on here (or available). You can address and opine for whatever you want, but what transpired here wasn't what I call addressing issues and opining (they were for you but not many others).

For what its worth - I agree on the threats. Slander/Libel notwithstanding.

What do you think the point of this is/was then?

What threats?
 
Does it for commercial entities ? You have someone else selling an air filter that claims to gain 6hp for 1/20th the price you've spent on your exhaust. If you wanted hp gains (or performance increase), why hasn't EVERYONE jumped on that bandwagon ?

I'm not asking for buyer beware or special treatment. I know vendors are on here with some sort of commercial benefit in the back of their mind. But I do think that having them on here is better than not having them on here (or available). You can address and opine for whatever you want, but what transpired here wasn't what I call addressing issues and opining (they were for you but not many others).

For what its worth - I agree on the threats. Slander/Libel notwithstanding.

Sorry what's this air filter guy proving?
 
Trauma

Was not going to post again in this thread but in answer to your questions.

you seem like a level headed kind of guy with a strong and some times controversial opinion.

Do you honestly think we would or even could falsify dyno results! no. What would the point be? AR has a great and honest reputation, why would we jeopardise that!

What amazes me is that a few amongst you are conveniently blind to other dyno results such as Copiya's that substantiate our results. Why some choose to ignore these seems to me to just show the fact they have got it in for AR and what ever i say falls on deaf ears.

We will post up a batch of results from other bikes in a new thread but again I'm sure some will simply say we falsified them.

To clarify we never once slated another manufacturer we simply showed you our like for like test results, if any think otherwise then you are simply wrong and need to read all the threads and posts to make it clear to you.

Regarding legal implications of some posts, why should a member get away with posting utter lies and attempting to blacken the name of AR? the fact is it is wrong and as such we will do everything within our power to protect our good name.

Again, thankyou for all the PM support from all the level headed members that DO, read the threads and posts from start to finish so they have the correct informed facts.

Here is my opinion - I want guys like Rich and Tuneboy, and others in here. I would prefer more engineers, developers, etc in the forum. So I really don't understand why a few idiots are trying to drive them out. No matter if you want the exhaust (or anything else) from him/them - the more people who know deeply about a product, the better. You guys are taking him to task because certain performance characteristics haven't been met. I don't see anyone taking Ducati to task because they haven't hit the 195hp DIN or SAE that Ducati claim or that sometimes Termi slips outperform the full either. . .

But thats not the point. The goal is to have more knowledge on here. And whether that knowledge is from an engineer at Ducati, a product developer at Austin, or even a technician at Honda - it doesn't matter. You guys treat people selling farkles who know nothing about the engineering underneath and yet give someone who is trying to do the right thing and provide information this much grief ?

Look the reality with most exhausts is that you might gain some performance from a decent tune. The jumps aren't going to be huge and there are huge variances between bikes, countries, dyno's, etc. The termi's aren't a bad exhaust for a reason - and any improvements are going to be incremental. We all pretty much know this. While I understand that some may be disappointed in whatever those results might be, the reality is that you really wanted those gains, but probably also fully knew that it probably wasn't going to be that large. If you want to believe marketing, you can drop an air filter in and get 7hp gain just like that.. . . c'mon.

Disclaimer: I have zero interest in Rich's exhaust - before or after these results. I do have an interest in having him and his knowledge stay in this forum as he's contributed a helluva lot more in content than quite a few others here who have no real business here (not interested in buying the exhaust and not contributing any sort of content either). Now, thats not saying anyone is not entitled to their opinion either, but whats been posted here isn't about opinions. I'd take knowledge over brainless idiocy any day.

I have been around very fast cars, boats, and motorcycles for very many years (like 40 years!). Even long before the internet, I had experience with "tuners" and aftermarket engine builders. In 1984 I put an aftermarket turbo on an RX-7 Mazda for instance. The reality is that the industry is full of small businesses that are the industries own worst enemies.

I have seen it all - and I don't think that is an exaggeration. There is a very well known car-based "tuner" still in business today that the car magazines continue to support who has done things that are unimaginable. When I say he is a crook, that is not really an exaggeration. My knowledge of him is pretty good and it amazes me how he gets away with things he does. That is just an example. It is amazing how many tuners make claims that never seem to hold up. It's not to say they don't offer improvements, but their moral compass always seem to be a few degrees off when making claims of increased performance.

The point is that Rich and his business may well be one of the good ones - I don't claim to know. But when they make a claim that does not seem to be met, they are likely receiving the wrath of the reputation of the industry in general. I think many of us are skeptical and it puts an increased burden of proof on the industry.

I do agree it's good to have them on here, but it's up to them, not us, to prove they are worthy. That is not a knock, just the reality of how some of us feel.
 
Sorry what's this air filter guy proving?

Doesnt really matter. What I was pointing out was the variances in treatment between certain vendors vs others when you said vendors were held to a different standard. You have one exhaust manufacturer who made some claims that you are finding a bit difficult to reach. You have another vendor selling air filters claiming a 6hp increase but not getting any grief over it. Not here nor there.

My question to you WAf - would you rather have him on the forum or off ? There is nothing wrong with people posting, woudn't buy it, doesn't perform to claims, etc - but having Rich, Tuneboy, and even better others - is of benefit to the community. WOuld love someone from Akra, Zard, Termi, Ducati, Rizoma, etc, etc onboard as well. The point was that the community is better when more knowledge is present - regardless of commercial undertones or not. Not saying one should not address commercial claims or performance - just that taken within the context that its beneficial to have them onboard and available to all rather than withdrawn and not.
 
Some people have questioned the point of this thread..

Here's my take..

Any thread on here is there to increase the knowledge base of the 1199 community through the sharing of ideas ,experiences and the conjoined desire to enjoy our bikes to the full.
If this is indeed the point of a thread then this particular one has been spectacular to me... I have learned so much here that I can only hope that other threads even come close to its usefulness....

Waf... A question... To me you kinda own this thread as you began it... so... Do you feel its been useful??
 
Any thread on here is there to increase the knowledge base of the 1199 community through the sharing of ideas ,experiences and the conjoined desire to enjoy our bikes to the full.
If this is indeed the point of a thread then this particular one has been spectacular to me... I have learned so much here that I can only hope that other threads even come close to its usefulness....

useful might be, but also solution oriented?
 
Some people have questioned the point of this thread..

Here's my take..

Any thread on here is there to increase the knowledge base of the 1199 community through the sharing of ideas ,experiences and the conjoined desire to enjoy our bikes to the full.
If this is indeed the point of a thread then this particular one has been spectacular to me... I have learned so much here that I can only hope that other threads even come close to its usefulness....

Waf... A question... To me you kinda own this thread as you began it... so... Do you feel its been useful??

I started the thread to share my experience of the product honestly and in detail after requests from other forum members to do just that.

So in a way its not really for me to say but I would have found it useful before I bought because there really was no independent data available.

Perhaps I would have still bought it, or maybe not but I would have been a lot more pragmatic about the purchase.
 
So can any other 1199 AR system owners other than Thewoot and Copiya please PM me.

Thanks
 

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