AR Inconel Install

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anthem said:
Doesnt really matter. What I was pointing out was the variances in treatment between certain vendors vs others when you said vendors were held to a different standard. You have one exhaust manufacturer who made some claims that you are finding a bit difficult to reach. You have another vendor selling air filters claiming a 6hp increase but not getting any grief over it. Not here nor there.

My question to you WAf - would you rather have him on the forum or off ? There is nothing wrong with people posting, woudn't buy it, doesn't perform to claims, etc - but having Rich, Tuneboy, and even better others - is of benefit to the community. WOuld love someone from Akra, Zard, Termi, Ducati, Rizoma, etc, etc onboard as well. The point was that the community is better when more knowledge is present - regardless of commercial undertones or not. Not saying one should not address commercial claims or performance - just that taken within the context that its beneficial to have them onboard and available to all rather than withdrawn and not.
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Maybe I'm the wrong person to ask, I've had far more useful information from independent forum members than I've had from manufacturers. If they make a positive contribution then great, if they disagree with what we say that's tough. The rules of the game have changed. The consumer has far more power than they ever have done through the free and unfettered exchange of views and information.

Once upon a time we would have seen a glossy ad in a bike mag and bought just on the strengths of the claims and never have been any the wiser. Advertisers were rarely held to account for their claims and the consumer suffered. Now we can call out a brand for under-delivering. Some brands haven't quite adjusted to this more egalitarian approach and it irks them. The brands that choose to engage positively even when things aren't going their way will be the real winners.

We don't need them, they need us.
 
WAfatboy said:
Maybe I'm the wrong person to ask, I've had far more useful information from independent forum members than I've had from manufacturers. If they make a positive contribution then great, if they disagree with what we say that's tough. The rules of the game have changed. The consumer has far more power than they ever have done through the free and unfettered exchange of views and information.

Once upon a time we would have seen a glossy ad in a bike mag and bought just on the strengths of the claims and never have been any the wiser. Advertisers were rarely held to account for their claims and the consumer suffered. Now we can call out a brand for under-delivering. Some brands haven't quite adjusted to this more egalitarian approach and it irks them. The brands that choose to engage positively even when things aren't going their way will be the real winners.

We don't need them, they need us.
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Your merging two different things together. I was asking about whether it was better to have manufacturers/reps/engineers on the board sharing and accessible. You're talking about accountability and marketplace dynamics.

And in all honestly - what other exhaust manufacturer has participated at all here ? Termi - none. Akra - none. Zard - none. Comp Werkes - none.

I'm sure if you don't want AR around at all - then hey at least you're a customer of Austin Racing and have more carrying weight than just about everybody else so far. Then I think he may have it right and he's not going to stay around all that much.

Too bad, because I think thats for the worse for the rest of us.
 
anthem said:
Your merging two different things together. I was asking about whether it was better to have manufacturers/reps/engineers on the board sharing and accessible. You're talking about accountability and marketplace dynamics.

And in all honestly - what other exhaust manufacturer has participated at all here ? Termi - none. Akra - none. Zard - none. Comp Werkes - none.

I'm sure if you don't want AR around at all - then hey at least you're a customer of Austin Racing and have more carrying weight than just about everybody else so far. Then I think he may have it right and he's not going to stay around all that much.

Too bad, because I think thats for the worse for the rest of us.
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Anthem

All I can say to that is based on Rich's responses I don't think he would be missed..:rolleyes:
 
anthem said:
Your merging two different things together. I was asking about whether it was better to have manufacturers/reps/engineers on the board sharing and accessible. You're talking about accountability and marketplace dynamics.

And in all honestly - what other exhaust manufacturer has participated at all here ? Termi - none. Akra - none. Zard - none. Comp Werkes - none.

I'm sure if you don't want AR around at all - then hey at least you're a customer of Austin Racing and have more carrying weight than just about everybody else so far. Then I think he may have it right and he's not going to stay around all that much.

Too bad, because I think thats for the worse for the rest of us.
Click to expand...

I'm undecided if its better to have a vendor who is inaccurate with claims, or one that is absent.
 
anthem said:
Your merging two different things together. I was asking about whether it was better to have manufacturers/reps/engineers on the board sharing and accessible. You're talking about accountability and marketplace dynamics.

And in all honestly - what other exhaust manufacturer has participated at all here ? Termi - none. Akra - none. Zard - none. Comp Werkes - none.

I'm sure if you don't want AR around at all - then hey at least you're a customer of Austin Racing and have more carrying weight than just about everybody else so far. Then I think he may have it right and he's not going to stay around all that much.

Too bad, because I think thats for the worse for the rest of us.
Click to expand...

Please don't twist my words to suit your purposes. My comments refer to ANY manufacturer or retailer. I have kept this thread factual and my feedback balanced despite the circumstances. I have spent my hard earned cash to buy a product so you're damn right I get to have an opinion.
 
VAST said:
I asked you Rich several SPECIFIC QUESTIONS (even in numerical order) at the relative beginning of this thread; in fact, I asked these questions 3 times across 3 posts. Not one was answered.
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Rich only answers questions in a different thread...duh:rolleyes:
 
Stw said:
Anthem

All I can say to that is based on Rich's responses I don't think he would be missed..:rolleyes:
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ttkarp said:
I'm undecided if its better to have a vendor who is inaccurate with claims, or one that is absent.
Click to expand...

WAfatboy said:
Please don't twist my words to suit your purposes. My comments refer to ANY manufacturer or retailer. I have kept this thread factual and my feedback balanced despite the circumstances. I have spent my hard earned cash to buy a product so you're damn right I get to have an opinion.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to twist your words - I just asked a question. No more, no less.

What I was getting at was that I think its a loss. You're talking about someone who probably knows more than the majority of people here. Whether he's commercial or not is not that relevant to me. I can read between the lines. At least he's here sharing information and not just selling stuff.

I would argue every vendor exaggerates claims. Some more than others. Some are completely useless. I'm not sure the AR one is - it is different sound, lighter in weight and does give /some/ increase albeit maybe not as much as claimed.

He doesn't have to be here. And its wildly apparent now why. I don't see Termignoni on here, or Ducati, or the rest. And hey - Termi has a bigger performance justification to make since their exhaust was actually WORSE that we found out (before the upmap, and ironically AR was the one who revealed it). But you know what - if AR isn't here, similar people would buy the exhaust, you get the same end result. Maybe a few won't know, maybe some will. But it would just fall on deaf ears.

But to my original reasoning. I don't care if the sticker manufacturer of DP tank pads comes on (and his product has some issues with peeling, etc.) as a vendor contributor. But if he contributes something into the adhesion of products onto Ducati paint or whatever is something that might be useful to somebody at some point. .

Whatever it is - I want more people who know more than the collective to contribute and be a part - whether right, wrong or indifferent. The "collective" doesn't need more people who know less - otherwise we're constantly talking about the same heat, the seat, etc, etc.
 
Anthem - no one told Rich to leave, and never implied he should. Maybe the comments forced him out (he keeps coming back though), but he threw out some zingers as well. He should (and was) holding himself to a higher standard then typical forum members. As for the other vendors, it isn't worth it to them to come here, typically the big vendors NEVER go to these little private forums, because of what happened here, and having time. We are an itsybitsy nitch of the big boys markets, so we mean nothing. Most have there own forums anyway, where they have some control, and can cver all their products. On another note, I don't think we had mch affect on it's design, basically a stainless/Inconel straight pipe following the path of the OEM. Of course to market sooner than Akra.
 
Anthem

You have quoted twice the problem that started this debate. That AR made you aware that Termi and Ducati were selling a $3500 performance up grade that was producing less performance than the standard system.

Thats a big claim and a false claim.

Buyer beware is not telling anyone not to buy this AR product but simply a warning to investigate your choices.

This became personal when Rich labelled members as trolls and requested some be banned for asking the following question.

How do you get the performance gain when your system is the same diameter as the standard system?

Instead of a simple answer that could have been ........ but sounded right like, we have a few subtle changes in radius of bends or length of pipe or a different baffle design.

Rich bit back with your a troll and I will not release our secrets.

Defensive and offensive. Poke me with a stick and you get a reaction.

Not once have I said anything negative about AR or the system, just asked questions that don't get answered. I too wanted the system to be a success as I love to have hot up options for my toys, I'm a sales persons wet dream in that sense.

When someone then threatens to have you removed from the forum and starts ranting about suing you it's hard not respond and emphasise their tom foolery.

The fanboys here will never change their mind as they entered the debate with their minds made up. But hell guys crying that we (trolls) are pushing an individual off the forum is as big a joke as the outlandish claims against Termi/Ducati.

Rich cries I will leave if you don't stop asking questions. Well so be it, If he wants to go then go.

The other manufacturers that Anthem mentioned as not being on the forum don't need the forum as a place to advertise unlike AR and the smaller outlets like Bellisimo.

You don't see Bellisimo running down another shop or a product that they don't sell or they too would be questioned about their claims.

Hell we all know that Gunny is not my best friend but with his air filter push he at no time says the standard filter reduces the performance or that the other after market filter reduces the performance. Just a simple claim and a price.

I am sure if I asked Gunny a question like how does it work, he would not say oh! that's secret you troll. He would say it allows more air through while still protecting the internals from debris! or words to that effect.

Be sceptical of all claims people it's healthy to do so. What has an individual to gain from their claims. Caveat emptor - buyer beware!
 
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Now that was a good/clear post. I hope you have nothing but positive reactions!!

On my way home, stopped at favorite pub!

PS Thank you Apple for loading picture sideways.
 

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