AR Inconel Install

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Trauma said:
Exactly why you shouldn't be on this thread, and at the very least, you should be talking to the exhaust, instead of at the posters. I keep telling everyone, this is a "Panigale" forum, not an "owner of Panigale" forum. If everyone would talk to the bike/products, and not at people, there would not be these crazy threads. No matter what someone says, like "I think that about a product", argue back "I think this about the product" instead of, "I think your a ___ for thinking that about the product". This very simple rule wiill keep things smooth, even Duc agrees, and it's his forum.
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You mean do as I say and not as I do, right ? Isn't this post exactly what you're saying not to do ?
 
Trauma said:
Exactly why you shouldn't be on this thread, and at the very least, you should be talking to the exhaust, instead of at the posters. I keep telling everyone, this is a "Panigale" forum, not an "owner of Panigale" forum. If everyone would talk to the bike/products, and not at people, there would not be these crazy threads. No matter what someone says, like "I think that about a product", argue back "I think this about the product" instead of, "I think your a ___ for thinking that about the product". This very simple rule wiill keep things smooth, even Duc agrees, and it's his forum.
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LMFAO. Seriously Trauma, you telling someone else off for posting on a thread they have no immediate interest in?! How many posts have you made now on this forum... :rolleyes:
 
SPJ said:
LMFAO. Seriously Trauma, you telling someone else off for posting on a thread they have no immediate interest in?! How many posts have you made now on this forum... :rolleyes:
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But I had an interest in the exhuast. I just wanted it to be quieter. And all of my posts mentioned the exhaust, save that last. I am talking about personal only, as in yours. Was that really neccesary for you to chime in for a personal post?
 
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Gavin D said:
Anthem

You have quoted twice the problem that started this debate. That AR made you aware that Termi and Ducati were selling a $3500 performance up grade that was producing less performance than the standard system.

Thats a big claim and a false claim.
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Gav I'm not making any comment either way on the rest of your post but I've seen you post the comment above a couple of times and I just wanted to share the feedback I had from Todd at BunburyDyno.

When I was initially talking to him about the issues with my AR system we discussed the various 1199 he has tuned. He made particular reference to the impact of the first upmap that was supplied with the full system.

He said they dyno'd a stock bike at 186hp, and then when they put on the full system with upmap it did 165hp. Clearly they were confused and tired several new runs with the same result until they put the standard map back on and it made 193hp. They then put the upmap back on and it made 165hp again. The new upmap clearly rectified this problem since.

http://www.bunburydyno.com/DYNO/DUCATI/1199 BHP std vs 70mm full system with std ecu map.pdf

I'm really looking forward to running on this dyno because these numbers are higher than ARs numbers for the stock map + Termi full system, ergo my AR system should have the best possible chance of achieving maximum numbers across the rev range, even if we do need to re-map slightly.
 
WAfatboy,

Thanks for the clarity of your post mate. The info that has been flying around this thread has been patchy at best all the way through.

Tid bits of info without full explanation or info provided with an intended point of view to broadcast tend to muddy the waters. ( Rich22 )

"He said they dyno'd a stock bike at 186hp, and then when they put on the full system with upmap it did 165hp. Clearly they were confused and tired several new runs with the same result until they put the standard map back on and it made 193hp."

As you clearly write above the full Termi with the std mapping still made a significant power increase over the stock bikes 186hp.

More than can be said for the AR system.

This instantly shows what I have said all along.

If a programming glitch caused the loss which it did, Bunbury Dyno and the capable techs found the issue pretty quickly and were able to show a significant power increase over stock with the non faulty std system mapping. Still not perfect obviously and the issue once found was rectified, but the system bolted straight on and produced more power not less.

Any capable tech should have and would have done as BunburyDyno did. Had AR done this and said that the upmap was the issue and not the system itself as they did then this would have been a completely different story. Still AR should not have derided Termi as it is always bad form and will evoke a response.

The truth is as per the info provided by WAfatboy and BunburyDyno that the full system without the proper mapping made a significant increase over stock of some 7hp.

Rich22 AR,

As Stw wrote a class act indeed!

Your lack of maturity is evident. As I stated above I asked you valid questions long before the Caveat Emptor was posted. Your response was to be evasive and dismissive of the simple question and to label me a troll for asking.

After repeated personal attacks akin to being in a school yard I felt compelled to express my concern over a vendor who was acting in this manner and refusing to clarify his claims.

Not once have I said anything negative about AR or the system just emphasised some good advice for an individual to take or leave as they please.

I am looking forward to hearing from your lawyers Rich22 that is if they can stop laughing long enough to make contact with me!

Just an observation Rich22, you need not sign off at the end of your post "Big mouth and no BALLS" we all know you wrote the post!
 
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Gavin D said:
WAfatboy,

Thanks for the clarity of your post mate. The info that has been flying around this thread has been patchy at best all the way through.

Tid bits of info without full explanation or info provided with an intended point of view to broadcast tend to muddy the waters. ( Rich22 )

"He said they dyno'd a stock bike at 186hp, and then when they put on the full system with upmap it did 165hp. Clearly they were confused and tired several new runs with the same result until they put the standard map back on and it made 193hp."

As you clearly write above the full Termi with the std mapping still made a significant power increase over the stock bikes 186hp.

More than can be said for the AR system.

This instantly shows what I have said all along.

If a programming glitch caused the loss which it did, Bunbury Dyno and the capable techs found the issue pretty quickly and were able to show a significant power increase over stock with the non faulty std system mapping. Still not perfect obviously and the issue once found was rectified, but the system bolted straight on and produced more power not less.

Any capable tech should have and would have done as BunburyDyno did. Had AR done this and said that the upmap was the issue and not the system itself as they did then this would have been a completely different story. Still AR should not have derided Termi as it is always bad form and will evoke a response.

The truth is as per the info provided by WAfatboy and BunburyDyno that the full system without the proper mapping made a significant increase over stock of some 7hp.

Rich22 AR,

As Stw wrote a class act indeed!

Your lack of maturity is evident. As I stated above I asked you valid questions long before the Caveat Emptor was posted. Your response was to be evasive and dismissive of the simple question and to label me a troll for asking.

After repeated personal attacks akin to being in a school yard I felt compelled to express my concern over a vendor who was acting in this manner and refusing to clarify his claims.

Not once have I said anything negative about AR or the system just emphasised some good advice for an individual to take or leave as they please.

I am looking forward to hearing from your lawyers Rich22 that is if they can stop laughing long enough to make contact with me!

Just an observation Rich22, you need not sign off at the end of your post "Big mouth and no BALLS" we all know you wrote the post!
Click to expand...

I as well as many have actually read the original AR Exhaust threads during the entire development process. Rich's claim was that the Termi Slip-on package made more HP than the Termi Full system package while on his dyno at his facility. Termi has made revisions of headers and Upmaps to rectify the issues they were having. The headers have been redesigned after race teams were complaining.

Rich has stated over and over again that Austin racing prefers to dyno tune the Pani with OEM map installed in the ecu. They don't care which exhaust you use, just use the OEM map and tune from there. He says it several times in the thread below that was started in September of last year. He clearly shows how inferior the old Upmap was. Many times in that thread it was stated to not use the early Full system Upmaps supplied by Ducati, stick with the OEM maps. I thought it was common knowledge that the original Upmaps were trash at that point.

http://ducati1199.com/marketplace/2041-austinracing-rapidbike-latest-dyno-results.html

So now, the question is why is there a problem with anything Rich said about the Termi full system package, Upmap or no Upmap, performing worse than the Termi slip on package available at the time?

From the very beginning, I think this whole thing was one very big misunderstanding. If I read your post correctly Gavin, you are saying what both BurnburyDyno and Austin Racing have confirmed.
 
Notec

Termignoni have never advised of any performance upgrade other than a 2kg weight saving for the slip on cans.

Termignoni make a claim of a maximum power increase of approximately 5% for the Ducati corse complete system.

Don't confuse WSBK sytems as you are required to remove your cooling fan for those and that system has never been in the equation until you brought it up.

The post is very clear and self explanatory so please read it again if your confused. I say that without malice or sarcasm.

It would be nice if Rich22 could argue his own case rather than Fanboys arguing for the sake of it.

I challenge any Fanboy to go back through the posts and find anything wrong with the questions I have asked of Rich22 which justified his personal attacks or even justified no response.

Go back to the start and actually read the posts, don't speed read them actually take an open mind without prejudice and find fault with my questions!
 
anthem said:
It wasn't a false claim when it was made. Now, whether you need to update the information so that your claims aren't as "good" as they were - well, you probably should - but in reality, most people aren't until its like defacto. I'd argue there are significantly more pre-updated panigales out there than there are post-map updated ones. . .

Hey I didn't see 195 at the dyno when the 1199 first came out either. Did we jump all over Ducati over this ? Hell, they had previous production bikes that made more power than the panigale until they got things straightened out.

Hey just because he didn't disclaimer all his claims like the big boys do - its not complete hog wash. There is/was some improvement. Just nowhere near whats claimed. Just like Duc's didn't get 195 on the dyno when they first came out either...

What I was getting at - I prefer people who have more knowledge than the collective to still be part of the collective. Thats what keeps people here. And people - no mater if they are part of a company or individual - are still people. He's not hiding behind a public relations, advertising or marketing person. It's pure unfettered AR. Just like if Claude Domenicali ever came on, I'd want pure unfettered claude, unedited.

And I have zero interest in his exhaust. Like ZERO. Never even considered it. But I do think its more a witch hunt to discredit/embarrass/witch hunt someone as far as possible to see if they can feel superior about "warning people" about a product. Give me a break - they have other products that might be of use, as well as this exhaust. It's a good resource to have on here - period.
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We bitched like hell about Ducati!!!
 
WAfatboy said:
We bitched like hell about Ducati!!!
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Yeah that's the thing i don't get.
IMO, it was like going off half cocked before the target was clearly identified.

I personally had faith that DUCATI would see that things would largely be taken care of, and i believe this has pretty much come to pass with the updated maps, sprocket options and heat shields. IMO historically the Termi slips have largely always been a cost effective alternative, even though they're not perfect.

If DUCATI's effort is not good enough for the end user, then there will always be options available through the aftermarket suppliers. At a very nice premium i might add:)
 
Yes it's starting to dawn on me that I would probably have been better off buying the Termi headers to go with my Slips and then getting Justin/Wayne to tune. All the negativity around the full system on release was never really counteracted by positive coverage of the systems performance with the new map and I'd not seen a dyno chart until the last couple of weeks. Anyway what's another $1900 between me and my Ducati dealer! I'll wait until after the dyno session on 6th May and then make a call but I'm already reconciling myself to this as a potential end result.
 
Gavin D said:
Notec

Termignoni have never advised of any performance upgrade other than a 2kg weight saving for the slip on cans.
Why would they if they knew the slips outperformed the standard full system through the majority of the powerband at the time? This was later confirmed.

Termignoni make a claim of a maximum power increase of approximately 5% for the Ducati corse complete system.
5% or somewhere between 7-10 BHP. This has also been confirmed and depending on the situation, it is a lie or it is the truth. If you consider the horrendous early Upmap part of the "complete system," it is a lie because as confirmed by multiple tuners/dyno operators, it lost power.

If you consider the standard full header and muffler alone to be the "complete system," then this has been confirmed to be true by multiple tuners/dyno operators.

Don't confuse WSBK sytems as you are required to remove your cooling fan for those and that system has never been in the equation until you brought it up.

The post is very clear and self explanatory so please read it again if your confused. I say that without malice or sarcasm.

It would be nice if Rich22 could argue his own case rather than Fanboys arguing for the sake of it.

I challenge any Fanboy to go back through the posts and find anything wrong with the questions I have asked of Rich22 which justified his personal attacks or even justified no response.

Go back to the start and actually read the posts, don't speed read them actually take an open mind without prejudice and find fault with my questions!
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Gavin D,

I'm labelled a fanboy because I actually read ALL the information presented over the entirety of the development process until now? Explain this please? I've also been reading and making comments in this thread before you were active in it.

Rich has posted all of the information I have just presented to you. He has explained this during the entire development process throughout multiple threads.

No one is talking about the WSBK exhaust system. I am not interested in that system and have never referenced it. All this time it has been about the standard Full Termi system that is available to the general public.

I am not taking sides. I just presented you with a lot of information that either you missed, didn't car to read, or just don't understand.

Everything I posted above is relevant to the general public and what was available to us at the time it was posted.

I have read your posts and UNDERSTAND fully what you are saying and it appears that you agree with Bunbury Dyno, as clearly written above. Therefore you MUST agree with Austin Racing because they performed the same test and reported these results several times last year.

This isn't about me taking sides. I'm simply reading, and redirecting the information to those who may have missed it.

Now if we are still not understanding each other, then let me know how I can be more clear. I am approaching this logically without emotion, without bias, and with a lot of patience.
 
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WAfatboy said:
Yes it's starting to dawn on me that I would probably have been better off buying the Termi headers to go with my Slips and then getting Justin/Wayne to tune. All the negativity around the full system on release was never really counteracted by positive coverage of the systems performance with the new map and I'd not seen a dyno chart until the last couple of weeks. Anyway what's another $1900 between me and my Ducati dealer! I'll wait until after the dyno session on 6th May and then make a call but I'm already reconciling myself to this as a potential end result.
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The problem is, the only way you could really know which system is better for your specific bike would be to buy the headers and take everything to your tuner. They'd have to find the perfect map for the Ar system, then uninstall it and install the Termi system and map that. You'd have same day, same dyno, same tuner, same bike numbers. Then compare the dyno runs for both and pick which one you like better. What an expensive pain in the arse!

Hopefully you'll be happy with the May 6th numbers and you can avoid that scenario!
 
ttkarp said:
The problem is, the only way you could really know which system is better for your specific bike would be to buy the headers and take everything to your tuner. They'd have to find the perfect map for the Ar system, then uninstall it and install the Termi system and map that. You'd have same day, same dyno, same tuner, same bike numbers. Then compare the dyno runs for both and pick which one you like better. What an expensive pain in the arse!

Hopefully you'll be happy with the May 6th numbers and you can avoid that scenario!
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So do I but I'll be sure to post either way because I want the rest of the members to know exactly what they are getting. I'm lucky that I know of two local 1199s that are having Termi full systems tuned so I will have a comparison.
 
WAfatboy said:
So do I but I'll be sure to post either way because I want the rest of the members to know exactly what they are getting. I'm lucky that I know of two local 1199s that are having Termi full systems tuned so I will have a comparison.
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That is the "missing link", idependent compare of AR/full Termi, same bike/dyno.
 
WAfatboy said:
I have to agree and have said so albeit in diplomatic terms to date but actually anyone behaving like this in the real world would have be excommunicated from an community or group without a second thought. Instead we've actually condoned it by allowing it to be repeated several time across various threads without sanction.
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i guess this is very specific to this forum. other forums delete, sanction, intervene...

DUC is the owner and only mod, so there is no moderation. i think he is running a government experiment here... :confused:
 
Phil said:
i guess this is very specific to this forum. other forums delete, sanction, intervene...

DUC is the owner and only mod, so there is no moderation. i think he is running a government experiment here... :confused:
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It's a conspiracy! LoL
 
I wouldn't worry about it. Like I said, this is how I keep it in perspective :D.

tumblr_m5iyvffZnX1rynh0bo1_500.gif
 

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