AR Inconel Install

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lardawge said:
It still doesn't answer the question about why you clowns take it so personal that you have to post pages and pages of nonsense on behalf of all us defenseless consumers.
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Nah, I wouldn't say your defenseless. Gullible perhaps. But not defenseless.

I'm going to respectfully bow out of this thread now (insert your cheering here:D). This shouldn't be, and hasn't been personal towards anyone to this point for me. Now, I'm starting to be bothered by some of the shots, and it's turned into a flat out pissing match with everyone wanting to be right.

I may never understand why you guys mindlessly accept Rich's word on things because he's "nice" and spent a lot of time on this product. When it comes to this sole issue, I really couldn't care less about Rich's personality (nice or not) or how reputable the company has been until now, nor do I think anyone should. All companies spend a lot of time on their products, so I don't see how AR is any different there. My only "cause" throughout this was to get a hint of honesty from AR that they really can't and shouldn't make superiority claims, and shouldn't bash competitors. Those of you who don't think there has been any bashing, I invite you to read through the other (original) AR exhaust thread. And the fact that there is a claim that the AR product is superior to the not yet released Akra product should be an indicator of some kind I would think. But, if you guys are ok with either issue, then so be it.

I guess I'm the tough consumer out there that is skeptical of claims based on questionable data, or outright "miscommunications" like the heat issue:rolleyes: Anyway, this has been an informative and fun thread in my opinion. I apologize if I've personally offended anyone through my persistence, but not for trying to get answers to important questions (my opinion obviously). I've tried to be careful not to take shots at anyone individually. I don't anticipate Rich will answer my comparison questions here because I suspect there is no answer. And an honest "we don't have that data" or something to that effect doesn't seem to be in his vocabulary. However, I'll be watching to see how it turns out for WAF.
 
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Stw said:
Haha.. good point..My bad.. No he didn't ..but it appears he isn't happy..But you got me...:)
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This is not about getting anyone.
I just wanna see how this is gonna play out for WAf.

I'd be more upset with the Woots mechanic for not pulling the exhaust, and contacting AR about how it fit. We have no idea if it is due to manufacturing error, or just a variance in the build of the Panis.... But the last chance to catch this before it causes issues for the client is the person who installs it.
 
man.......I just want to see some numbers.....this thread is worse than a reality show mixed with the jerry springer show
 
Gavin D said:
Anthem

You have quoted twice the problem that started this debate. That AR made you aware that Termi and Ducati were selling a $3500 performance up grade that was producing less performance than the standard system.

Thats a big claim and a false claim.
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It wasn't a false claim when it was made. Now, whether you need to update the information so that your claims aren't as "good" as they were - well, you probably should - but in reality, most people aren't until its like defacto. I'd argue there are significantly more pre-updated panigales out there than there are post-map updated ones. . .

Hey I didn't see 195 at the dyno when the 1199 first came out either. Did we jump all over Ducati over this ? Hell, they had previous production bikes that made more power than the panigale until they got things straightened out.

Hey just because he didn't disclaimer all his claims like the big boys do - its not complete hog wash. There is/was some improvement. Just nowhere near whats claimed. Just like Duc's didn't get 195 on the dyno when they first came out either...

What I was getting at - I prefer people who have more knowledge than the collective to still be part of the collective. Thats what keeps people here. And people - no mater if they are part of a company or individual - are still people. He's not hiding behind a public relations, advertising or marketing person. It's pure unfettered AR. Just like if Claude Domenicali ever came on, I'd want pure unfettered claude, unedited.

And I have zero interest in his exhaust. Like ZERO. Never even considered it. But I do think its more a witch hunt to discredit/embarrass/witch hunt someone as far as possible to see if they can feel superior about "warning people" about a product. Give me a break - they have other products that might be of use, as well as this exhaust. It's a good resource to have on here - period.
 
anthem said:
And I have zero interest in his exhaust. Like ZERO. Never even considered it.
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Exactly why you shouldn't be on this thread, and at the very least, you should be talking to the exhaust, instead of at the posters. I keep telling everyone, this is a "Panigale" forum, not an "owner of Panigale" forum. If everyone would talk to the bike/products, and not at people, there would not be these crazy threads. No matter what someone says, like "I think that about a product", argue back "I think this about the product" instead of, "I think your a ___ for thinking that about the product". This very simple rule wiill keep things smooth, even Duc agrees, and it's his forum.
 
Trauma said:
Exactly why you shouldn't be on this thread, and at the very least, you should be talking to the exhaust, instead of at the posters. I keep telling everyone, this is a "Panigale" forum, not an "owner of Panigale" forum. If everyone would talk to the bike/products, and not at people, there would not be these crazy threads. No matter what someone says, like "I think that about a product", argue back "I think this about the product" instead of, "I think your a ___ for thinking that about the product". This very simple rule wiill keep things smooth, even Duc agrees, and it's his forum.
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Think that rule was being followed up until about post 53...
That's when it all went awry...

Now I can only wait patiently for the results and decent road review from WAf. The exhaust has form and fit, but the function is still a bit murky.
 
Hey guys whilst I wait for the third (and hopefully final) instalment of this saga I'm not crying in a corner but rather enjoying the beauty of Bali. Have to say I've found the negative attacks on this forum quite depressing as various people try to prove their respective points.

I'm now definitely booked in for 6th May with a session at Bunbury Dyno so why don't we park it until then. I will start a new thread with the charts and narrative from each part of the process in that thread so we can have a clean 1-2-3 step supported by the data.

I've picked up some valuable information in this process talking to the various tuners (and a couple of the less well known forum members that have contributed to this thread) and I will include their observations when we get to the end rather than fuelling more fires now when we don't have any new data.

I am convinced we have a good team of enthusiasts with great experience of extracting maximum power from street, race and drag bikes through tuning and building and if anyone can find the missing power they can. Wayne at Tuneboy continues to be an absolute trooper constantly looking for improvements and has actually been the best support throughout this entire process.

If anyone has new data or dyno charts then that's really all we want to see posted at this stage.

Thanks
 

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Trauma said:
Exactly why you shouldn't be on this thread, and at the very least, you should be talking to the exhaust, instead of at the posters. I keep telling everyone, this is a "Panigale" forum, not an "owner of Panigale" forum. If everyone would talk to the bike/products, and not at people, there would not be these crazy threads. No matter what someone says, like "I think that about a product", argue back "I think this about the product" instead of, "I think your a ___ for thinking that about the product". This very simple rule wiill keep things smooth, even Duc agrees, and it's his forum.
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You mean do as I say and not as I do, right ? Isn't this post exactly what you're saying not to do ?
 
Trauma said:
Exactly why you shouldn't be on this thread, and at the very least, you should be talking to the exhaust, instead of at the posters. I keep telling everyone, this is a "Panigale" forum, not an "owner of Panigale" forum. If everyone would talk to the bike/products, and not at people, there would not be these crazy threads. No matter what someone says, like "I think that about a product", argue back "I think this about the product" instead of, "I think your a ___ for thinking that about the product". This very simple rule wiill keep things smooth, even Duc agrees, and it's his forum.
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LMFAO. Seriously Trauma, you telling someone else off for posting on a thread they have no immediate interest in?! How many posts have you made now on this forum... :rolleyes:
 
SPJ said:
LMFAO. Seriously Trauma, you telling someone else off for posting on a thread they have no immediate interest in?! How many posts have you made now on this forum... :rolleyes:
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But I had an interest in the exhuast. I just wanted it to be quieter. And all of my posts mentioned the exhaust, save that last. I am talking about personal only, as in yours. Was that really neccesary for you to chime in for a personal post?
 
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Gavin D said:
Anthem

You have quoted twice the problem that started this debate. That AR made you aware that Termi and Ducati were selling a $3500 performance up grade that was producing less performance than the standard system.

Thats a big claim and a false claim.

Buyer beware is not telling anyone not to buy this AR product but simply a warning to investigate your choices.

This became personal when Rich labelled members as trolls and requested some be banned for asking the following question.

How do you get the performance gain when your system is the same diameter as the standard system?

Instead of a simple answer that could have been ........ but sounded right like, we have a few subtle changes in radius of bends or length of pipe or a different baffle design.

Rich bit back with your a troll and I will not release our secrets.

Defensive and offensive. Poke me with a stick and you get a reaction.

Not once have I said anything negative about AR or the system, just asked questions that don't get answered. I too wanted the system to be a success as I love to have hot up options for my toys, I'm a sales persons wet dream in that sense.

When someone then threatens to have you removed from the forum and starts ranting about suing you it's hard not respond and emphasise their tom foolery.

The fanboys here will never change their mind as they entered the debate with their minds made up. But hell guys crying that we (trolls) are pushing an individual off the forum is as big a joke as the outlandish claims against Termi/Ducati.

Rich cries I will leave if you don't stop asking questions. Well so be it, If he wants to go then go.

The other manufacturers that Anthem mentioned as not being on the forum don't need the forum as a place to advertise unlike AR and the smaller outlets like Bellisimo.

You don't see Bellisimo running down another shop or a product that they don't sell or they too would be questioned about their claims.

Hell we all know that Gunny is not my best friend but with his air filter push he at no time says the standard filter reduces the performance or that the other after market filter reduces the performance. Just a simple claim and a price.

I am sure if I asked Gunny a question like how does it work, he would not say oh! that's secret you troll. He would say it allows more air through while still protecting the internals from debris! or words to that effect.

Be sceptical of all claims people it's healthy to do so. What has an individual to gain from their claims. Caveat emptor - buyer beware!
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........!!!

is this statement from you below not negative:

WARNING


READ WAFATBOYs EXPERIENCE AND RESULTS BEFORE YOU COMMIT!

THIS IS A COMMUNITY SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

BUYER BEWARE!

You posted on this marketplace group buy thread:
http://ducati1199.com/marketplace/4259-austinracing-inconel-full-system-new-group-buy.html

Big mouth and no BALLS
 
Gavin D said:
Anthem

You have quoted twice the problem that started this debate. That AR made you aware that Termi and Ducati were selling a $3500 performance up grade that was producing less performance than the standard system.

Thats a big claim and a false claim.
Click to expand...

Gav I'm not making any comment either way on the rest of your post but I've seen you post the comment above a couple of times and I just wanted to share the feedback I had from Todd at BunburyDyno.

When I was initially talking to him about the issues with my AR system we discussed the various 1199 he has tuned. He made particular reference to the impact of the first upmap that was supplied with the full system.

He said they dyno'd a stock bike at 186hp, and then when they put on the full system with upmap it did 165hp. Clearly they were confused and tired several new runs with the same result until they put the standard map back on and it made 193hp. They then put the upmap back on and it made 165hp again. The new upmap clearly rectified this problem since.

http://www.bunburydyno.com/DYNO/DUCATI/1199 BHP std vs 70mm full system with std ecu map.pdf

I'm really looking forward to running on this dyno because these numbers are higher than ARs numbers for the stock map + Termi full system, ergo my AR system should have the best possible chance of achieving maximum numbers across the rev range, even if we do need to re-map slightly.
 
WAfatboy,

Thanks for the clarity of your post mate. The info that has been flying around this thread has been patchy at best all the way through.

Tid bits of info without full explanation or info provided with an intended point of view to broadcast tend to muddy the waters. ( Rich22 )

"He said they dyno'd a stock bike at 186hp, and then when they put on the full system with upmap it did 165hp. Clearly they were confused and tired several new runs with the same result until they put the standard map back on and it made 193hp."

As you clearly write above the full Termi with the std mapping still made a significant power increase over the stock bikes 186hp.

More than can be said for the AR system.

This instantly shows what I have said all along.

If a programming glitch caused the loss which it did, Bunbury Dyno and the capable techs found the issue pretty quickly and were able to show a significant power increase over stock with the non faulty std system mapping. Still not perfect obviously and the issue once found was rectified, but the system bolted straight on and produced more power not less.

Any capable tech should have and would have done as BunburyDyno did. Had AR done this and said that the upmap was the issue and not the system itself as they did then this would have been a completely different story. Still AR should not have derided Termi as it is always bad form and will evoke a response.

The truth is as per the info provided by WAfatboy and BunburyDyno that the full system without the proper mapping made a significant increase over stock of some 7hp.

Rich22 AR,

As Stw wrote a class act indeed!

Your lack of maturity is evident. As I stated above I asked you valid questions long before the Caveat Emptor was posted. Your response was to be evasive and dismissive of the simple question and to label me a troll for asking.

After repeated personal attacks akin to being in a school yard I felt compelled to express my concern over a vendor who was acting in this manner and refusing to clarify his claims.

Not once have I said anything negative about AR or the system just emphasised some good advice for an individual to take or leave as they please.

I am looking forward to hearing from your lawyers Rich22 that is if they can stop laughing long enough to make contact with me!

Just an observation Rich22, you need not sign off at the end of your post "Big mouth and no BALLS" we all know you wrote the post!
 
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Gavin D said:
WAfatboy,

Thanks for the clarity of your post mate. The info that has been flying around this thread has been patchy at best all the way through.

Tid bits of info without full explanation or info provided with an intended point of view to broadcast tend to muddy the waters. ( Rich22 )

"He said they dyno'd a stock bike at 186hp, and then when they put on the full system with upmap it did 165hp. Clearly they were confused and tired several new runs with the same result until they put the standard map back on and it made 193hp."

As you clearly write above the full Termi with the std mapping still made a significant power increase over the stock bikes 186hp.

More than can be said for the AR system.

This instantly shows what I have said all along.

If a programming glitch caused the loss which it did, Bunbury Dyno and the capable techs found the issue pretty quickly and were able to show a significant power increase over stock with the non faulty std system mapping. Still not perfect obviously and the issue once found was rectified, but the system bolted straight on and produced more power not less.

Any capable tech should have and would have done as BunburyDyno did. Had AR done this and said that the upmap was the issue and not the system itself as they did then this would have been a completely different story. Still AR should not have derided Termi as it is always bad form and will evoke a response.

The truth is as per the info provided by WAfatboy and BunburyDyno that the full system without the proper mapping made a significant increase over stock of some 7hp.

Rich22 AR,

As Stw wrote a class act indeed!

Your lack of maturity is evident. As I stated above I asked you valid questions long before the Caveat Emptor was posted. Your response was to be evasive and dismissive of the simple question and to label me a troll for asking.

After repeated personal attacks akin to being in a school yard I felt compelled to express my concern over a vendor who was acting in this manner and refusing to clarify his claims.

Not once have I said anything negative about AR or the system just emphasised some good advice for an individual to take or leave as they please.

I am looking forward to hearing from your lawyers Rich22 that is if they can stop laughing long enough to make contact with me!

Just an observation Rich22, you need not sign off at the end of your post "Big mouth and no BALLS" we all know you wrote the post!
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I as well as many have actually read the original AR Exhaust threads during the entire development process. Rich's claim was that the Termi Slip-on package made more HP than the Termi Full system package while on his dyno at his facility. Termi has made revisions of headers and Upmaps to rectify the issues they were having. The headers have been redesigned after race teams were complaining.

Rich has stated over and over again that Austin racing prefers to dyno tune the Pani with OEM map installed in the ecu. They don't care which exhaust you use, just use the OEM map and tune from there. He says it several times in the thread below that was started in September of last year. He clearly shows how inferior the old Upmap was. Many times in that thread it was stated to not use the early Full system Upmaps supplied by Ducati, stick with the OEM maps. I thought it was common knowledge that the original Upmaps were trash at that point.

http://ducati1199.com/marketplace/2041-austinracing-rapidbike-latest-dyno-results.html

So now, the question is why is there a problem with anything Rich said about the Termi full system package, Upmap or no Upmap, performing worse than the Termi slip on package available at the time?

From the very beginning, I think this whole thing was one very big misunderstanding. If I read your post correctly Gavin, you are saying what both BurnburyDyno and Austin Racing have confirmed.
 
Notec

Termignoni have never advised of any performance upgrade other than a 2kg weight saving for the slip on cans.

Termignoni make a claim of a maximum power increase of approximately 5% for the Ducati corse complete system.

Don't confuse WSBK sytems as you are required to remove your cooling fan for those and that system has never been in the equation until you brought it up.

The post is very clear and self explanatory so please read it again if your confused. I say that without malice or sarcasm.

It would be nice if Rich22 could argue his own case rather than Fanboys arguing for the sake of it.

I challenge any Fanboy to go back through the posts and find anything wrong with the questions I have asked of Rich22 which justified his personal attacks or even justified no response.

Go back to the start and actually read the posts, don't speed read them actually take an open mind without prejudice and find fault with my questions!
 

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