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Because they have to.
i realize that, but termi could have slapped a sticker on a muffler-less pipe if it was optimal was my point...i wasn't questioning the two brands co-branded, but more at solution for optimal performance....
For really accurate tests you need:
The same actual bike (not just model)
The same day
Mapping for each system
Same bike and dyno temperature runs
Yes a real ball ache!
Hmm i wonder, why do you all miss the fact that from 7000rpm to peak power AR simply trounces the competition. In all the tests and graphs!
Feel the bike to ride with that power at that point is crazy power, great fun.
The same actual bike (not just model)
The same day
Mapping for each system
Same bike and dyno temperature runs
Yes a real ball ache!
Hmm i wonder, why do you all miss the fact that from 7000rpm to peak power AR simply trounces the competition. In all the tests and graphs!
Feel the bike to ride with that power at that point is crazy power, great fun.
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It can be fun!
Serously though, the BunburyDyno dyno is reading a higher number for a stock bike and full Termi than you got from your dyno for either so can you think of any reason why your shouldn't do at least as well as the Termis when we run there as the Termi shown was not tuned.
http://www.bunburydyno.com/DYNO/DUCATI/1199 BHP std vs 70mm full system with std ecu map.pdf
Serously though, the BunburyDyno dyno is reading a higher number for a stock bike and full Termi than you got from your dyno for either so can you think of any reason why your shouldn't do at least as well as the Termis when we run there as the Termi shown was not tuned.
http://www.bunburydyno.com/DYNO/DUCATI/1199 BHP std vs 70mm full system with std ecu map.pdf
In theory no! but, we were not present at the runs, no idea what conditions were to get to those figures.
Example:
Same bike on the dyno firstly at -2 degrees outside air temp shows 188bhp.
Second test no alterations at all at 18 degrees outside air temp shows 181bhp.
That shows how things can affect results.
Example:
Same bike on the dyno firstly at -2 degrees outside air temp shows 188bhp.
Second test no alterations at all at 18 degrees outside air temp shows 181bhp.
That shows how things can affect results.
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Thanks. I understand the temp issue, I saw that with my Halrey tune.
Luckily we are coming into a period of the year which match the conditions shown on those two 1199 runs, around 20C, nowhere near the variation you've highlighted above.
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I think i'm ready to retire
....from this thread.
There is obviously no way to prove anything....good, bad, indifferent...that AR could not point to some minor (my personal opinion, not known to be fact, please disregard if you are looking for objectivity and/or you are the litigation oriented type) environment difference that all but proves the point that on any given dyno you cannot control enough variables under which you could pass any semblance of scientific scrutiny or produce a valid comparison.
Therefore...all claims and numbers are irrelevant. And for that...I read 888 posts.
....from this thread.
There is obviously no way to prove anything....good, bad, indifferent...that AR could not point to some minor (my personal opinion, not known to be fact, please disregard if you are looking for objectivity and/or you are the litigation oriented type) environment difference that all but proves the point that on any given dyno you cannot control enough variables under which you could pass any semblance of scientific scrutiny or produce a valid comparison.
Therefore...all claims and numbers are irrelevant. And for that...I read 888 posts.
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Let me tell you it does feel like that but we have a dyno to run on now that has consistently delivered higher numbers than the AR dyno so even allowing for some atmospheric anomalies we should be good to make a comparison.
Stw
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This also shows that he is pumping a .... load of air through the bike as well, look at the large fan at the front and his trouser legs flapping!
Desmosedici on dyno - YouTube
C'mon, don't be so negative. I have the solution: the influence of those uncontroled factors can be compensated by increasing the sample size. I'd say that sampling 100-200 panis for each class (base; termi-slipons; full termi, AR stock map; AR RB etc, you want to add AKRA?? go gor it!), each in multiple dynos around the world, could give us an accurate comparison between the various exhaust options within a confidence interval of 95% (that is, under the assumption that the measurements will follow a gaussian distribution)
So,we are almost there
Yeah, it really pulls. I almost shot out my seat Sunday. I didn't get a chance to shift from 5 to 6 lol before I caught up to my friends Honda 1krr down a straight.
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I totally agree. People have said before, the only use of a dyno is to get the best (under the conditions of your environment) tune for your bike, or to see a comparison of a change you made. Exhaust, filter, titanium rods. I think it is senseless to compare 2 halfway around the world, and no manufacturer would ever let us see a bad one anyway. BTW, only 88 of those posts actually mentioned the exhaust anyway
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So why did AR not take the Full Termi system and tune it as best they could with their RB or TB units then get some base line runs on the dyno to compare with the extensive time they spent fine tuning their own system?
Apples with Apples. Oh thats right that would not have helped with the sales or establishing a reputation for their new product.
I still have not received any communication from your lawyers Rich!
EXACTLY.
That's what i don't get with all this business
It seems that people are getting obsessed with chasing numbers.
Is that what it's all about?
Bragging rights??
I reckon 99.9% of the owners (myself included) couldn't tell the difference between these machines on the track, in terms of actual lap times.
Only the likes of riders like Troy Bayliss would be able to notice, and then he would most likely be pursuing more performance on a day to day, track by track basis through gearing, suspension tweeks and tyre pressures.
Really, talk about howling at the moon
It's all pointless IMO
I reckon loose some weight and just go out there and ride it and enjoy/appreciate it for what it is.
If one is having fueling issues, then by all means pursue that until it's sorted. Good luck to you. There are better alternatives now with this new technology than ever before. Tuneboy and Rexxer come to mind.
If one wants to have a better built/lighter/crafted/styled exhaust that's made out of higher spec/more exotic materials. Then go for it by all means, but make sure it is tuned properly and accept what you end up with after you have expended your resourses and/or reached technology/talent limits.
Keep in mind that it's possible to ask for too much in life.
It is possible to be happier with less
Any way, i would like to take this oportunity to wish WAF all the best in his pursuit of absolute perfection.
WAF, your efforts to date have not gone unnoticed by myself and others.
I think you are close to getting there, and all will be revealed after the 6th, but make sure your team has that ram air thing going.
Don't loose heart.
At the very least you can potentially say that you have the very best crafted/engineered 1199 exhaust in production.
Even if it doesn't fully meet your expectations.
All the best,
Brad
Stw
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EXACTLY.
That's what i don't get with all this business
It seems that people are getting obsessed with chasing numbers.
Is that what it's all about?
Bragging rights??
I reckon 99.9% of the owners (myself included) couldn't tell the difference between these machines on the track, in terms of actual lap times.
Only the likes of riders like Troy Bayliss would be able to notice, and then he would most likely be pursuing more performance on a day to day, track by track basis through gearing, suspension tweeks and tyre pressures.
Really, talk about howling at the moon
It's all pointless IMO
I reckon loose some weight and just go out there and ride it and enjoy/appreciate it for what it is.
If one is having fueling issues, then by all means pursue that until it's sorted. Good luck to you. There are better alternatives now with this new technology than ever before. Tuneboy and Rexxer come to mind.
If one wants to have a better built/lighter/crafted/styled exhaust that's made out of higher spec/more exotic materials. Then go for it by all means, but make sure it is tuned properly and accept what you end up with after you have expended your resourses and/or reached technology/talent limits.
Keep in mind that it's possible to ask for too much in life.
It is possible to be happier with less
Any way, i would like to take this oportunity to wish WAF all the best in his pursuit of absolute perfection.
WAF, your efforts to date have not gone unnoticed by myself and others.
I think you are close to getting there, and all will be revealed after the 6th, but make sure your team has that ram air thing going.
Don't loose heart.
At the very least you can potentially say that you have the very best crafted/engineered 1199 exhaust in production.
Even if it doesn't fully meet your expectations.
All the best,
Brad
Everything you say makes sense and has merit.... But AR set the bar really high themselves claiming "huge" gains over stock/Termi... If they had started from the point of view of the pipe simply looking and sounding awesome ( which it appears to do) and it may provide some modest power improvement then this thread wouldn't even be here.. This whole thing revolves around accountability for claims made by the seller.. and for some reason this seems to be overlooked and brushed under the carpet by many... This I don't get.. This is no crusade or witch hunt..But when you come on a forum and shout about how great your product is and STRESS the power/Tq gains then you better be damn sure these are repeatable and consistent because unless you do so with caveats (which I dont remember AR ever doing) then you should expect to have to stand up and explain why not... Vendors should know that they use forums (for product hyping) at their own risk...
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I totally agree. People have said before, the only use of a dyno is to get the best (under the conditions of your environment) tune for your bike, or to see a comparison of a change you made. Exhaust, filter, titanium rods. I think it is senseless to compare 2 halfway around the world, and no manufacturer would ever let us see a bad one anyway. BTW, only 88 of those posts actually mentioned the exhaust anyway
What about the heat??
Hardly anybody is addressing the heat.
Hopefully AR will be able to produce a high quality heat shield for the rear cylinder loop that looks the goods and is effective
Personally i always thought it was unwise to ommit such an important component to put to market.
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