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I get where you are coming from Stw.
However, i was always looking at it from another perspective right from the start.
Looking at the 1199 as a whole in terms of concept, design, manufacturing, engineering, etc, ........ .........
In trying not to sound like a Fanboy, i always felt it was going to be hard to beat DUCATI's effort, with all their resourses and experience and knowhow.
It took them 5 years to bring it to market, and IMO it was an outstanding result all round. And i wouldn't care less if it never won a race or a championship as long as i live, let alone whether it makes xyz power/TQ etc and wheelies in x gear blah blah.
To me it's not rocket science that it is, and always will be a thoroughbred.
I love it
For example, we all saw concept drawings then the early pictures, and then later the Checkmate video. From all that a number of people (myself included) weren't so sure about whether DUCATI got the styling quite right.
All we really knew is that it looked better than the BMW offering.
Then when we started to see the 1199s in the flesh it didn't look too bad after all. Actually it looked pretty darn good. Although maybe not as good as the 1098 when it came out, and for some the jury was out as to whether the 1999 looked better or not.
Of course when you see them side by side on the floor, for me the 1199 was the nicer of the two and it rightly made the 1098 look dated (but it's still a classic).
IMO this whole business is a bit like watching NASA get Neil Armstrong actually walking on the moon and saying "well surely someone could do better than that"
And NASA doesn't have the design/ styling flair that the Italians have.
Otherwise the LEM would've looked a lot better than what it did
Right?
Cheers Guys
Stw
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I get where you are coming from Stw.
However, i was always looking at it from another perspective right from the start.
Looking at the 1199 as a whole in terms of concept, design, manufacturing, engineering, etc, ........ .........
In trying not to sound like a Fanboy, i always felt it was going to be hard to beat DUCATI's effort, with all their resourses and experience and knowhow.
It took them 5 years to bring it to market, and IMO it was an outstanding result all round. And i wouldn't care less if it never won a race or a championship as long as i live, let alone whether it makes xyz power/TQ etc and wheelies in x gear blah blah.
To me it's not rocket science that it is, and always will be a thoroughbred.
I love it
For example, we all saw concept drawings then the early pictures, and then later the Checkmate video. From all that a number of people (myself included) weren't so sure about whether DUCATI got the styling quite right.
All we really knew is that it looked better than the BMW offering.
Then when we started to see the 1199s in the flesh it didn't look too bad after all. Actually it looked pretty darn good. Although maybe not as good as the 1098 when it came out, and for some the jury was out as to whether the 1999 looked better or not.
Of course when you see them side by side on the floor, for me the 1199 was the nicer of the two and it rightly made the 1098 look dated (but it's still a classic).
IMO this whole business is a bit like watching NASA get Neil Armstrong actually walking on the moon and saying "well surely someone could do better than that"
And NASA doesn't have the design/ styling flair that the Italians have.
Otherwise the LEM would've looked a lot better than what it did
Right?
Cheers Guys
But I think you miss my point... This isn't about the 1199....This is about nefarious claims made for an addition to the bike... No??
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This is why....I have to remind folks that we are looking for GAINS not peak HP numbers. GAINS over my previous setup with slips
&
GAINS over Termi Full System because that's what I would have upgraded to for half the price.
I am looking for these elusive gains from the mid-range up. We will have to settle for these gains being seen against other 1199s run on the same dyno but that's fine for me, its in the same state and run by an experienced operator with a great setup.
I don't care about peak HP as I spend no time there but I need to get better mid-range (7-10) if these pipes are to stay on the bike because my slips were doing a better job.
I am hanging on to the hope that the bike is truly strange and unique and that the dyno I posted the video of earlier is going to unlock something in the AR exhaust dynamics because I like the looks and sound plus weight saving. I also realise that this is probably a slim hope but the fact that Copiya's bike did appear to show some improvements has kept me in the game!
I suppose what i was trying to say is that i had a healthy level of scepticism about ANY claims made early by an aftermarket manufacturer.
IMO a couple of the things that were coming out of AR were potentially a little fancifull.
The heat mitigation properties of the Inconel tubing was one thing.
I always thought unless it was double skinned or something how could it make more power and be running at a cooler temp?????????
Physics never change.
I put it down to the possibility that Rich was rightly so, very proud of what they had created.
He just got carried away in/with it. I sensed a lot of attachment with it on his part.
Also he may have been running off the premature and unreasonably high expectations that i felt were being projected onto to AR and the belief in their expertise in theses matters.
At the same time people were prematurely being sceptical (to varying degrees) about the DUCATI/Termi offerings on a number of levels. Which was sort of psychologicaly driving people to have high expectations in an aftermarket manufacturer that deservedly so, had a high standing, respect and credibility.
IMO there was also too much jumping the gun going on.
I believe this combination of factors has led us to where we are today.
I summary it's just all because of the influence of human nature on things.
I personally didn't buy into the early hype or negativity about the bike/Termi thing, and i didn't buy into the early hype about AR before they had produced anything. Nor am i prepared to buy into the current belief of holding AR to account.
I do believe that their offering is marvelous, but not as good as it could be YET.
I am holding out hope
I also have no emotional investment in it. As that green blooded pointy eared so and so would say ("that would be illogical")
As has been said here before Caveat Emptor. This applies to all things in life.
Thanks to WAF and his un-paralleled commitment we are still gathering the facts. I only like to deal in facts where possible.
I have no attachment, and have no intention of buying one of these things YET.
I actually would like to see AR do something with the exhaust differently as i have my own ideas about it.
IMO my ideas would be a good thing, and they have been validated so far with all the goings on about this exhaust.
Obviously flow dynamics and scavenging effects are going to be crucial in any outcome. Which will always be a compromise.
But it will probably never happen
Perhaps a direct enquiry to Rich will be in order?
Maybe he would be prepared to work with me on it?
Stw, i think people need to back off on this and let it naturally run its course.
If after the dust settles and you want to get an AR system then go and knock yourself out.
If you don't want to get one, then fine.
I'm sure the sun will come up tomorrow regardless, and i'll be riding mine with a big silly grin on my face
Cheers Mate
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So why did AR not take the Full Termi system and tune it as best they could with their RB or TB units then get some base line runs on the dyno to compare with the extensive time they spent fine tuning their own system?
Apples with Apples. Oh thats right that would not have helped with the sales or establishing a reputation for their new product.
I still have not received any communication from your lawyers Rich!
I think this shows the fully Termi tuned by rich with rapid bike:
ARComp1_zpse88db1e3.jpg Photo by Rich22v4 | Photobucket
ARcomp2_zpsf60970c6.jpg Photo by Rich22v4 | Photobucket
Using the same model ad year bike on the same dyno can give different dyno readings, some will show higher HO and some lower, this is especially important when arguing about a 10 hp difference.
Please check out the following information at Factory Pro: Producers of the EC997 Low Inertia Eddy Current Dynamometer Series and Quality MC performance products a link was already posted here previously:
Factory Pro has confidentially refused to exaggerate measured and corrected horsepower figures to sell more dynos.
Since Factory Pro hasn't rescaled horsepower for the last 20 year and our software reads the same files the same from the very first EC997 dyne system.
Some Dynamometer companies add to measured rear wheel power readings a factor that is based on ESTIMATED rear wheel power losses (under what power conditions? 125cc? 1200cc? under coasting conditions? with a 3.00x17 bias ply tire? a 190x17 radial tire? New heavy radial tire vs. worn old, light, stock bias ply tire? Who knows?)
In short, there is NO meaningful "average" tire to get a correct rear tire power transmission loss measurement for all bikes - so obviously, unless they actually measure the power lost in the rear tire, under driven load conditions, NO dyno company should BE ADDING incorrect power figures into the measured power. It's simply wrong.
The fact that they add varying amounts of power to the actual, "true" amount of power delivered and measured to the surface of the drive roller creates a situation that makes it an onerous task to compare power figures from different brands of dynamometer systems.
On simple inertial dynamometers, some (most, actually, all that I know of in the MC market) companies use an average for the inertial mass value of the engine, transmission, rear wheel, sprocket and chain on every bike - as if a YZ125 has the same rear wheel or internal rotating mass as a 1340cc Harley Davidson. Needless to say, if the software thinks that the YZ125 had a HD rear wheel on it, it would look like the 125 makes more HP at the rear wheel than it does at the crankshaft. It's simply wrong.
And - that's why you hear of 125cc Karts that make 43 hp at the rear wheels!!!!!
It's expensive to measure frictional losses in the engine and drivetrain, requiring the dyno to be able to drive the vehicle with engine off. Add the cost of a 50+hp electric motor, controlled power supply, etc. It's just not likely that $20,000 dyno will be equipped with that equipment.
It is also common for dynamometer companies to add to the power readings by adding transmission and primary gear/chain losses back into the measured power readings. Some companies make a concerted effort try to measure frictional losses and, optionally, add the power to the measured readings. Other companies - some that would surprise you - say that it's not important and give a blanket, single factor for frictional losses in every engine. That includes some $25,000-$35,000 dynes.
Some simply say that there is a meaningful "average" for every motorcycle,(2 stroke, 4 stroke, 1 cylinder/1 transmission, 4 cylinder/1 transmission) and apply it to every bike and that it is not a significant difference.
Blanket estimates of "average" losses and corrections are, quite simply, incorrect. At the upper levels of the industry, (we are talking about $150,000 - $500,000 AC or DC 4 quadrant dynamometers) it is not tolerated - shouldn't be - and needn't be.
There is a dyno company that actually has different versions of software that displays their own identical data files as different amounts of power depending on whether you use the DOS version or the Windows version of their software!!
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just as important as the quantity of posts from said 7 individuals, is the quality of posts and the general tone of said participants.
and yes, quite impressive to say the least
(I'm 1 post closer to Gavin D now!)
and yes, quite impressive to say the least
(I'm 1 post closer to Gavin D now!)
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What heat?
Sifubs
Thank you for posting our graphs yet again!
I have posted them so many times I have lost count but as usual Gavin D (what is your email address) chooses to ignore them and continue spouting off about how we have not done a comparative test showing a fully mapped Termi system!
Perhaps now the graph has been re posted by a different member Gavin D will take off the blind fold and read the graph, be happy with his termi full system purchase and STOP causing so much grief on an otherwise great forum!
We only post our substantiated results from bikes we dyno. Bored with repeating this time and time again.
I say yet again, WE STAND BY ALL OF OUR DYNO TEST RESULTS.
If you don't like what we post and don't believe our figures then don't buy our system, simple as that.
Thank you for posting our graphs yet again!
I have posted them so many times I have lost count but as usual Gavin D (what is your email address) chooses to ignore them and continue spouting off about how we have not done a comparative test showing a fully mapped Termi system!
Perhaps now the graph has been re posted by a different member Gavin D will take off the blind fold and read the graph, be happy with his termi full system purchase and STOP causing so much grief on an otherwise great forum!
We only post our substantiated results from bikes we dyno. Bored with repeating this time and time again.
I say yet again, WE STAND BY ALL OF OUR DYNO TEST RESULTS.
If you don't like what we post and don't believe our figures then don't buy our system, simple as that.
Brad
what ideas do you have, always open to suggestion. Cost as always is a factor in just how far we can go with our system.
We have tested many different ideas in the development and ended with what we now have. We found, as usual, there is always a trade off trying to kill db levels and keeping low down power.
Moto gp bikes are generally fully open!
what ideas do you have, always open to suggestion. Cost as always is a factor in just how far we can go with our system.
We have tested many different ideas in the development and ended with what we now have. We found, as usual, there is always a trade off trying to kill db levels and keeping low down power.
Moto gp bikes are generally fully open!
Hi Rich,
If i may, i would like to open discussions with you by email?
I think you will find the focus of my idea quite cheap.
Cheers,
Brad
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i
Actually I'm glad he did as well, I'd missed the comparison with the slips and I also stumbled across some other graphs you've posted along the way.
Just to be clear, and at the risk of you repeating yourself again, the full Termi featured in both the graphs above - was that with original first release upmap or a version of the new upmap? (It looks like the old one because the runfile is #35 is consistent with your post in September '12)
Have I missed a graph with the full Termi with the new upmap as well, or is this what the big hullabaloo was about?
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Those were from earlier releases of the Upmap. But the Upmaps were further tuned (MAX tuned in the time allotted) with the RB modules by AR on their dyno to show a fair comparison of the different exhaust systems and mapping at the time.
I pointed this out to Gavin D several times in post #859 and again in #865. The link from post #859 clearly shows the difference between the old factory Upmap vs RB tuned. Rich said over and over again he prefers to tune any 1199, no matter the exhaust, with the factory OEM mapping. Everyone was aware that the old Upmap robbed power substantially thru power band. This was later confirmed by more individuals as well as Bunburry Dyno.
There was no graph posted of the new Termi Upmap on an 1199 equipped with the full system. If there was, I certainly would have re-posted it. Rich has commented on a significant improvement in the low-end performance (5K rpm and below) after testing bikes with the revised OEM map.
I have no doubt that once Austin racing receives a bike fitted with Full Termi system and revised Upmap, they will test, tune, and post results just as they have done in the past.
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Not really any point. We will never see it out perform the AR.
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Do you mean if we re test it or full stop!
Never quite sure with you
I am not sure what your statement asks, I'd say use English, but you are English
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Would you believe our figures!
Careful
I have always said I do! I just don't think you, or any vendor, would post a test you achieved that put your product in a poor light. Agreed?
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