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This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on again...
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The setup, yes.
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That's a 'No' then.
Shame Rich couldn't have answered as this is where misinformation slips in (no pun intended). The graphs you reference I already have and are for a Termi with Slips.
I know that they said the old upmap was trash, and I've already posted anecdotal evidence myself from BunburyDyno (my local dyno) that supports that. I actually corrected Gavin on this point myself in post #937
What I'm getting at is that as far as i can tell the claims of superiority were not made against a machine with the OEM map, but an AR tuned version of the up-map bike. Was the AR equipped bike also based on the upmap?
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Lard (pun intended) - YOU are part of the problem, a post against posters, not the topic.
Rich - thank you for kinda answering my post. Again, I know you never falsify your results, but I am sure we have only seen the positive ones.
This whole string started beucause someone else wanted to see the AR exhaust compared to the new up-maped Termi. My simple resonse, was that "what is the point" - meaning, if you ever release it, it will show the AR pipe as superior, or you would not release it. So what's the point of asking. Simple, non-attacking, let's get past asking for it, that's all.
Actually I'd also like to have seen a bike with NO upmap run with the full Termi, which would have been the way to get the best result at the time. Anyway its all moot now.
Trauma I think you hit the nail on the head, no graph will be posted that shows AR behind. This is why independent dyno evidence is so important and why I'm trying to get just that.
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NOTEC
Post #91 I put this very question to Rich which he either avoided or purposely ignored because he new that he had cherry picked info all through this process.
Post #100 I refer to YearOne and his figures which out perform the claims by Rich.
With no answers from Rich my advice at post #172.
Post #219 I refer to the issue all along.
Post #221 Rich claims we should be banned for asking questions and becoming more sceptical with Richs response.
Post #225 my response to hostility being shown by Rich.
Post #228 from ttkarp quotes a question from member lotto.
February 25, 2013...question from Lotto:
"Looks good, thanks. I'd like to run the exhaust without a fueling module until June, when I can get it dynotuned. Should I put AIS (smog) block off plates on in the meantime- does it make any difference without a fueling module on your exhaust?"
February 26, 2013...answer from Rich22
"A Rapidbike fuelling module is recommended to get the full potential from the system. It is not essential and performance is still way up from stock without it. No up maps are required.
In tests we found the heat shield was not required in particular with the Inconel systems. A heat shield is a simple add on, if the feedback from customers in extremely hot climates calls for a shield then we will offer 1.
Block off plates are not required."
Due to a lack of reasonable responses to my questions to Rich I made this assumption and judgement of Rich and AR in Post #231
After seeing you represent AR on this forum there is no way I would ever deal with you or your company.
To be labelled a troll and claim I am dissing you is again ludicrous!
I like others wanted your claims to be true. I have asked you basic reasonable questions which you have brushed away and ignored.
The tone of this thread was changed by you and your direct childish insults to multiple members without basis.
In retrospect when you read between the lines it's clear.
Your system is the same diameter as the std system and probably a straight copy up to the muffler. Thats why you couldn't tell me the areas that made your system more powerful. No you don't need to reveal secrets to prove your claims.
You gain all your power from re mapping and all your money by using a less used material so you can charge a huge sum of money and justify it.
Members if you don't want the Termi buy Akrapovic full titanium system. A thing of beauty and quality. Tried Trusted and True. A company of worlds best practice.
Something Rich and AR by association have very little idea of.
From this point it has just been Fanboys cherry picking info to support Rich and AR and still no response to the origin of this debate the weak and subjective info touted by Rich.
Notec - Your first post was #21 "Whoa....." Nice contribution.
My first post was #36
I want to thank you for your honesty with this and I feel your disappointment.
It sounds mental though and like others have said look at the weight savings. At least you didn't buy a full DP system and replace it with the AR, that would have been really annoying!
Good luck with the tune mate.
You and the other Fanboys have made this a pissing comp, I had real questions for Rich which he didn't want to answer.
Rich is responsible for lowering the tone of this thread as shown above.
No FanBoy has taken on my challenge from post #860 and all FanBoys should read post #858
CAVEAT EMPTOR
Post #91 I put this very question to Rich which he either avoided or purposely ignored because he new that he had cherry picked info all through this process.
Post #100 I refer to YearOne and his figures which out perform the claims by Rich.
With no answers from Rich my advice at post #172.
Post #219 I refer to the issue all along.
Post #221 Rich claims we should be banned for asking questions and becoming more sceptical with Richs response.
Post #225 my response to hostility being shown by Rich.
Post #228 from ttkarp quotes a question from member lotto.
February 25, 2013...question from Lotto:
"Looks good, thanks. I'd like to run the exhaust without a fueling module until June, when I can get it dynotuned. Should I put AIS (smog) block off plates on in the meantime- does it make any difference without a fueling module on your exhaust?"
February 26, 2013...answer from Rich22
"A Rapidbike fuelling module is recommended to get the full potential from the system. It is not essential and performance is still way up from stock without it. No up maps are required.
In tests we found the heat shield was not required in particular with the Inconel systems. A heat shield is a simple add on, if the feedback from customers in extremely hot climates calls for a shield then we will offer 1.
Block off plates are not required."
Due to a lack of reasonable responses to my questions to Rich I made this assumption and judgement of Rich and AR in Post #231
After seeing you represent AR on this forum there is no way I would ever deal with you or your company.
To be labelled a troll and claim I am dissing you is again ludicrous!
I like others wanted your claims to be true. I have asked you basic reasonable questions which you have brushed away and ignored.
The tone of this thread was changed by you and your direct childish insults to multiple members without basis.
In retrospect when you read between the lines it's clear.
Your system is the same diameter as the std system and probably a straight copy up to the muffler. Thats why you couldn't tell me the areas that made your system more powerful. No you don't need to reveal secrets to prove your claims.
You gain all your power from re mapping and all your money by using a less used material so you can charge a huge sum of money and justify it.
Members if you don't want the Termi buy Akrapovic full titanium system. A thing of beauty and quality. Tried Trusted and True. A company of worlds best practice.
Something Rich and AR by association have very little idea of.
From this point it has just been Fanboys cherry picking info to support Rich and AR and still no response to the origin of this debate the weak and subjective info touted by Rich.
Notec - Your first post was #21 "Whoa....." Nice contribution.
My first post was #36
I want to thank you for your honesty with this and I feel your disappointment.
It sounds mental though and like others have said look at the weight savings. At least you didn't buy a full DP system and replace it with the AR, that would have been really annoying!
Good luck with the tune mate.
You and the other Fanboys have made this a pissing comp, I had real questions for Rich which he didn't want to answer.
Rich is responsible for lowering the tone of this thread as shown above.
No FanBoy has taken on my challenge from post #860 and all FanBoys should read post #858
CAVEAT EMPTOR
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+1001
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- CT
NOTEC
Post #91 I put this very question to Rich which he either avoided or purposely ignored because he new that he had cherry picked info all through this process.
Just because you have not seen AR remap a Full Termi system does not mean they have not done so. They did, I posted the info which was available in a link for your viewing pleasure, you chose to dismiss it. What can I say...
What AR has done with their pipe to achieve more power is their IP, just as what Akrapvic has done to their exhaust is IP. You make all kinds of assumptions in that post.
The last part of that post, Rich answered because the info was not posted before on this forum.
Post #100 I refer to YearOne and his figures which out perform the claims by Rich.
Again, pipe info is IP. Also, all bikes are different. Maybe the person who assembled YearOne's bike got a raise that day and was feeling happy. It happens. All Dynos are different, every exhaust is different, every engine is different, and different performance can be had at different times of day. I hope you can understand this to be truth, because it is.
With no answers from Rich my advice at post #172.
You call it advice, and it didn't sound as such. I'm not sure who failed, as the setup parameters to replicate AR's testing have not yet been followed. Until that happens, who failed?
Also, you can show up to that test if you want but prepare to be outperformed on the dyno.
Post #219 I refer to the issue all along.
Much of what you posted in #219 was flat out wrong and speculation but I chose not to call you out on it because after all, this thread is about WAf and his 1199 with AR exhaust. By the way, you do realize that post has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread, right? But of course you already knew that.
Post #221 Rich claims we should be banned for asking questions and becoming more sceptical with Richs response.
That's between the few of you. More level headed members don't seem to have an issue with any of you guys. I know I don't.
Post #225 my response to hostility being shown by Rich.
This post is directed all over the place. Had you had done a simple search like the rest of us, you would have discovered that he had tuned a FULL TERMI system last year, a few of them actually. And has done a head to head comparison. But hey, those who have done their due diligence warrants them being termed a "Fanboy...." I see the logic.
Post #228 from ttkarp quotes a question from member lotto.
February 25, 2013...question from Lotto:
"Looks good, thanks. I'd like to run the exhaust without a fueling module until June, when I can get it dynotuned. Should I put AIS (smog) block off plates on in the meantime- does it make any difference without a fueling module on your exhaust?"
February 26, 2013...answer from Rich22
"A Rapidbike fuelling module is recommended to get the full potential from the system. It is not essential and performance is still way up from stock without it. No up maps are required.
In tests we found the heat shield was not required in particular with the Inconel systems. A heat shield is a simple add on, if the feedback from customers in extremely hot climates calls for a shield then we will offer 1.
Block off plates are not required."
So, what exactly is your issue with his response? Did he lie? Is the AR exhaust's performance not superior to stock? I thought is was as it was posted for our viewing pleasure some time ago. He also addressed the heat shield issue. They are making one for those who need it.
Due to a lack of reasonable responses to my questions to Rich I made this assumption and judgement of Rich and AR in Post #231
After seeing you represent AR on this forum there is no way I would ever deal with you or your company.
To be labelled a troll and claim I am dissing you is again ludicrous!
I like others wanted your claims to be true. I have asked you basic reasonable questions which you have brushed away and ignored.
The tone of this thread was changed by you and your direct childish insults to multiple members without basis.
In retrospect when you read between the lines it's clear.
Your system is the same diameter as the std system and probably a straight copy up to the muffler. Thats why you couldn't tell me the areas that made your system more powerful. No you don't need to reveal secrets to prove your claims.
You gain all your power from re mapping and all your money by using a less used material so you can charge a huge sum of money and justify it.
Members if you don't want the Termi buy Akrapovic full titanium system. A thing of beauty and quality. Tried Trusted and True. A company of worlds best practice.
Something Rich and AR by association have very little idea of.
You're assumption and judgement was incorrect due to your own ignorance and failure to read past threads posted by AR. Threads that would have answered the majority of the questions you had. Questions that had no place in this thread. Questions that were ignored because of the manner in which you asked them and the comments you made surrounding them. To some, your words sounded hateful and in poor taste. To others, they were disrespectful and unwarranted. To me, I could care less because it was clear as day that you hadn't searched.
From this point it has just been Fanboys cherry picking info to support Rich and AR and still no response to the origin of this debate the weak and subjective info touted by Rich.
Cherry Picking? If you term those who have done the research "fanboys," and providing threads addressing your questions and issues DIRECTLY "cherry picking," I guess I should have just chopped down the entire orchard and dropped it on your front lawn!
Notec - Your first post was #21 "Whoa....." Nice contribution.
My first post was #36
I want to thank you for your honesty with this and I feel your disappointment.
It sounds mental though and like others have said look at the weight savings. At least you didn't buy a full DP system and replace it with the AR, that would have been really annoying!
Good luck with the tune mate.
Yes, So I basically said what you did in so many words. Only my words had no agenda behind them.
You and the other Fanboys have made this a pissing comp, I had real questions for Rich which he didn't want to answer.
There's that term again... You keeping track of how many times you've used it. How many times have I called you or anyone a troll? Ahhhhhhh... I don't blame him for not answering your questions for reasons posted above. If you want answers, search first and ask better questions. Stop assuming and make educated guesses.
Rich is responsible for lowering the tone of this thread as shown above.
Wow, only Rich ehhhh, could have fooled me. Perhaps things started going south from post #36? Words of encouragement only, or was there a little something else thrown in there?
No FanBoy has taken on my challenge from post #860 and all FanBoys should read post #858
I read post #858 and responded to it COMPLETELY addressing your questions and showing how incorrect you were in your ways. And if I am not mistaken, I've read all of your posts AGAIN and have shown you why you should probably research a little more before challenging a company that researches Ducatis DAILY and provides the community with valuable info and excellent product.
CAVEAT EMPTOR
Dear Gavin D,
With respect, please stop calling me and others an AR Fanboy. I don't own AR product. I own Ducati product. I own Termignoni Product. I own Akrapovic product. I own Shift-tec Product. And most important, I am a member here just as you are and have done nothing to you other than point you to the info. I am here in this thread to see the results of WAf's efforts and hard earned $$$.
Best regards,
Notec
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You guys have both in your own way made valid points that have positively assisted the debate and uncovering the facts that we do have. Why don't we just leave it at that.
This is going to be a long weekend with nothing new to post from me fact wise until COB Monday. I intend to fill this time riding the bike, loving the sound and exploring the benefits of the Tuneboy tune.
Have a good weekend
This is going to be a long weekend with nothing new to post from me fact wise until COB Monday. I intend to fill this time riding the bike, loving the sound and exploring the benefits of the Tuneboy tune.
Have a good weekend
Gavin D
Why oh why do you persist in talking complete bull!!!
To clear a few points up prior to un subscribing from this thread.
You are the problem and the trouble maker.
You even moved across to another thread to carry on the AR attack, your posts have been removed from that thread!
AR can post graphs showing you the termi full system without any map but I can promise you it is not good at all which is why we have not posted it.
Never once have we but down another manufacturers product, we have only ever posted comparisons, is that so bad. You can see the same on the Akrapovich website. (Lost count of how many times I have stated this).
You and any of your followers enjoy your exhausts, but please stop slagging off AR products.
Also for your information I can assure you our system is radically different in diameter, and design at every point from the stock system, I think that is clear enough to see. (Once again you talk crap and lies!)
Trauma
Ok would any company post a graph showing there product to be inferior to another! I think not.
We posted the tests as we found them, we do have other graphs showing the termi offerings with and without up maps compared to AR.
What we posted are actually putting the termi in the best light possible.
New maps will yield different results I'm sure. We will post them as we have the bikes on our dyno.
Any further questions for AR please go to another thread.
Why oh why do you persist in talking complete bull!!!
To clear a few points up prior to un subscribing from this thread.
You are the problem and the trouble maker.
You even moved across to another thread to carry on the AR attack, your posts have been removed from that thread!
AR can post graphs showing you the termi full system without any map but I can promise you it is not good at all which is why we have not posted it.
Never once have we but down another manufacturers product, we have only ever posted comparisons, is that so bad. You can see the same on the Akrapovich website. (Lost count of how many times I have stated this).
You and any of your followers enjoy your exhausts, but please stop slagging off AR products.
Also for your information I can assure you our system is radically different in diameter, and design at every point from the stock system, I think that is clear enough to see. (Once again you talk crap and lies!)
Trauma
Ok would any company post a graph showing there product to be inferior to another! I think not.
We posted the tests as we found them, we do have other graphs showing the termi offerings with and without up maps compared to AR.
What we posted are actually putting the termi in the best light possible.
New maps will yield different results I'm sure. We will post them as we have the bikes on our dyno.
Any further questions for AR please go to another thread.
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Dpoes anyone know where this chart is on Akra's site?
Ducati 1199 Panigale S-D11E1-T Evolution Line (Titanium) - Akrapovi 1199+Panigale S-D11E1-T+Evolution+Line+(Titanium)
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"Comparisons" as in a general practice. AK hasn't posted any performance figures for their Pani system. They expect buyers to shell out nearly $4k on name alone.
***Edit***
Oops I made a mistake, they did post video and audio clips.
Last edited:
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"Comparisons" as in a general practice. AK hasn't posted any performance figures for their Pani system. They expect buyers to shell out nearly $4k on name alone.
Rich has been ranting (over and over) about Akra having a Termi compare on their site in order to help justify AR comparing against Termi. There is not.
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not on Akra's site but FYI
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Xbox posted this first
http://ducati1199.com/ducati-1199/2586-akrapovic-full-system-dyno-chart.html
http://ducati1199.com/ducati-1199/2586-akrapovic-full-system-dyno-chart.html
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Not what I asked, I saw this last November here only. My point is it appears Rich out and out lied about Akra posting a chart against Termi on their site. Further, he used that lie in order to justify him posting charts against Termis with outdated maps.
P.S. I am particularly aggravated by this, because I am interested in the Akra, which for $3400 is quite a deal. Also, Rich has stated his pipe "beats" the Akra, and he has not even tested against it yet.
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If that's the system you really want then just go buy it already. Why the fuss? Don't answer that. It was rhetorical. I really don't want or care to know.
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I did, thanks for asking.
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Great, so when it shows up we'll all be eagerly awaiting your review and posts of your dyno results. In the meantime let's just move on already.
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I will not post here again unless mentioned in a post, or posted directly to - I was responding to Rich's. If you look, I have consistently defended his comparisons as not being falsified, I just wish he would stick to his own product, and stop down playing others. BTW, I will not be posting dyno results, as we don't have a tuner here, and I don't want to be responsible for a thread like this one
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