Ducati 1299 Suspension and Handling Settings

Dave Moss is a good dude. He helped crew our Endurance Team at the Grand Nationals last year. Not only did he help with the suspension, but he helped with tires, fueling the bike etc. It was really great having him on the team.

When you say he "setup" your bike, did he make any ride height adjustments?

If im being totally honest, I have never touched the suspension on a street bike...ever...not once. And have never felt a need to. I just ride it. It doesn't matter on the street. Most people truly can't feel a difference between "2 clicks here and 2 turns there" on the track; I find it hard to believe that anyone can feel those differences on the street.

I also find it comical when people say stuff like "trail braking to apex", "finish corners on the gas", "steer with the rear", "run wide on corner exits", "spinning the rear" and other "track lingo" when referring to street riding. Not directing that towards the OP, just in general. I see it on every forum. I would be willing to bet a paycheck that 99.9% of the people that talk about how the rear tire was "moving and spinning everywhere" don't know what they are talking about.

I have had people make those comments about their street riding, then rode behind them (coaching them) on the track and the rear never moved, never slid, didn't even spin...not once. Most of the time the rear tire is just rolling across the pavement. Sometimes people might get on the gas hard enough to actually load up the tire and suspension...and they falsely assume what they feel is the rear moving and spinning. When in fact, they are finally making the tire work rather than just rolling across the pavement and what they are feeling is the tire/suspension loading up.

I guess there is nothing wrong with tossing out some baseline numbers. But the thing is, as previously mentioned, they will mostly just end up confusing people. Or causing people to start tinkering with stuff they probably shouldn't/aren't qualified to mess with.

Contrary to popular belief, bodyweight is NOT a factor when it comes to suspension setup. Bodyweight is irrelevant. I have a good friend that weighs about 135lbs and runs 1.10 springs in the forks at most tracks (which is supposedly for somebody that weighs 225lbs+).

There are so many factors that go into suspension setup...

Track layout
Ambient conditions
Track surface
Tires (brand and compound)
Pace/speed
Riding style
Personal preference
Suspension type
Desired suspension travel

...just for starters. None of those things are really factors on the street, and all of those things are subjective. Suspension will never be the same for 2 people. My teammate was on the exact same bike (year/model), with the same motor build, running the same suspension components and the same tires on the same tracks.....and our setups would be different.

And suspension isn't something that you set and forget. It is a living thing that not only changes from track to track, but changes from day to day (and even morning to afternoon) on the same track.

I will say this, probably the best advice I can give in this thread is to TAKE NOTES.

Before you touching ANYTHING, record where all of your adjusters are right now, record your ride height, record your tire type, size, compound and pressure, etc.

Then if you make any changes, record those also.

If the bike feels like ...., you can always go back to your original settings. Or go the opposite way you just went. If you don't take notes, you are basically flying blind. You will get lost, have no idea where you are or what you have done and can waste a whole weekend chasing your tail to try to get the bike back where it should be.

I have the R so none of this really helps me........

I'm off to a specialist with spanners and hammers instead of a geek with glasses and a laptop.

Set it to f*cking fast mode please!!!

Mutt1979 said:

I have the R so none of this really helps me........



I'm off to a specialist with spanners and hammers instead of a geek with glasses and a laptop.



Set it to f*cking fast mode please!!!

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I just spit my food out.

I think Shilling was just trying to compare guys. Everyone is going to have different ideas on suspension, that's why he went to Dave Moss.

Chaotic said:

If the bike feels like ...., you can always go back to your original settings. Or go the opposite way you just went. If you don't take notes, you are basically flying blind. You will get lost, have no idea where you are or what you have done and can waste a whole weekend chasing your tail to try to get the bike back where it should be.

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Per the owners manual you can set the whole thing back to factory default electronically, but your point is taken...easy to get lost w/ all the settings.

Also per your prior post, putting on the gas in the corners is good for all riding...even @ 30 mph on the street.

Let's start a sticky for suspension settings and handling discussions.

.

Chaotic said:

If im being totally honest, I have never touched the suspension on a street bike...ever...not once. And have never felt a need to. I just ride it. It doesn't matter on the street. Most people truly can't feel a difference between "2 clicks here and 2 turns there" on the track; I find it hard to believe that anyone can feel those differences on the street.

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Disagree - it used to be the case that a click or two didn't make any noticeable difference, but that has changed. With modern suspensions you notice the difference, at least I do

I also find it comical when people say stuff like "trail braking to apex", "finish corners on the gas", "steer with the rear", "run wide on corner exits", "spinning the rear" and other "track lingo" when referring to street riding. Not directing that towards the OP, just in general. I see it on every forum. I would be willing to bet a paycheck that 99.9% of the people that talk about how the rear tire was "moving and spinning everywhere" don't know what they are talking about.

I have had people make those comments about their street riding, then rode behind them (coaching them) on the track and the rear never moved, never slid, didn't even spin...not once.

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Most of the time what you are saying is true - street riders are squids - but there are some very fast guys who ride mountain roads, and again, Scott Russell grew up doing it. You can't be too dogmatic with the "anything on the street is a complete waste of the time to build skill" philosophy. It's not the best place to learn, no question, but I've seen a few of these guys slide the rear, trail brake, do stand up wheelies at 100+ (granted has little to do with cornering skill, but still impressive) - all those things - they are fast - and they break the law, but there aren't many cops on some of these lonely mountain roads. The only ones seeing it are a few cows.

There are always exceptions - always.

Chaotic said:

Contrary to popular belief, bodyweight is NOT a factor when it comes to suspension setup. Bodyweight is irrelevant.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but how could it not be a factor for setting up the sag?

Grayson said:

I think Shilling was just trying to compare guys. Everyone is going to have different ideas on suspension, that's why he went to Dave Moss.

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It's fine to share settings but there really are so many variables and rider preferences, so it's only good as a starting point. I set the sag and adjust one or two clicks at a time, then go try it out. The Base suspension is pretty good - the shock would need to be changed out for the track but the fork is great.

Chaotic said:

Dave Moss is a good dude. He helped crew our Endurance Team at the Grand Nationals last year. Not only did he help with the suspension, but he helped with tires, fueling the bike etc. It was really great having him on the team.

When you say he "setup" your bike, did he make any ride height adjustments?

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No.. We will do any further adjustments at the track, if they are necessary.

Chaotic said:

Contrary to popular belief, bodyweight is NOT a factor when it comes to suspension setup. Bodyweight is irrelevant. I have a good friend that weighs about 135lbs and runs 1.10 springs in the forks at most tracks (which is supposedly for somebody that weighs 225lbs+).

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You are wrong; sorry. If I weigh 230 lbs and I have springs meant for a 150 lb rider, I will bottom out the forks and potentially crash. If I am 125 lbs (my wife is) and I ride a bike that was sprung from the factory for a 180 lb person, I will NEVER use the correct amount of suspension travel, because I cannot compress the springs through their DESIGNED range.

Valving is specific to spring rate as well. If you put a 1.1 spring on a shock that was valved for a .8 spring, it will not have NEARLY enough rebound damping to deal with the spring when it is fully compressed and starts to rebound.

Go talk to the head of Ohlins USA, go talk to Dan Kyle, go talk to Dave Moss (and I HAVE talked to all of them) , talk to ANY professional that has worked in WSBK, MotoGP, AMA or even AFm and tell them your theory; they will laugh at you.

Is a motorcycle rideable with the wrong springs on it for your weight? Of course, but it's nowhere near optimal.

fzr100098 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how could it not be a factor for setting up the sag?

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First thing I learned hanging out with an actual pro race team about suspension, they never check sag. Chaotic listed all the things they worry about first.

Speaking of Dan Kyle. Where is Dan Kyle? lol

80shilling said:

You are wrong; sorry. If I weigh 230 lbs and I have springs meant for a 150 lb rider, I will bottom out the forks and potentially crash. If I am 125 lbs (my wife is) and I ride a bike that was sprung from the factory for a 180 lb person, I will NEVER use the correct amount of suspension travel, because I cannot compress the springs through their DESIGNED range.

Valving is specific to spring rate as well. If you put a 1.1 spring on a shock that was valved for a .8 spring, it will not have NEARLY enough rebound damping to deal with the spring when it is fully compressed and starts to rebound.

Go talk to the head of Ohlins USA, go talk to Dan Kyle, go talk to Dave Moss (and I HAVE talked to all of them) , talk to ANY professional that has worked in WSBK, MotoGP, AMA or even AFm and tell them your theory; they will laugh at you.

Is a motorcycle rideable with the wrong springs on it for your weight? Of course, but it's nowhere near optimal.

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Slow down and think about it a little bit more. Chaotic's perspective comes from racing, and racing at the pointy end of the pack. Think of it another way, your wife and Marquez weigh about the same. You think he's running the same springs and valving she would? I've jumped on local fast kids bikes and they were almost always setup way stiffer than mine were, despite me having weight on them. Why? They are faster and generate way more force in all directions.

For us normal guys, it's not that big a deal and spring weights will move up and down with rider weight generally. But fast people operate on a different planet then us.

shakazulu12 said:

First thing I learned hanging out with an actual pro race team about suspension, they never check sag. Chaotic listed all the things they worry about first.

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Dont tell him that, he will tell you that they wasted the extra money in having the extra people and equipment around simply because they wanted the best.

Leon, Wilkson...Your input please?

Grayson said:

Dont tell him that, he will tell you that they wasted the extra money in having the extra people and equipment around simply because they wanted the best.

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Pro race teams do check sag, I have personally seen them do it and they have a shelf full of springs to choose from and they have data on every track they go to as a baseline, plus they already know the weight of their rider. A motorcycle from the factory is set for a specific weight and if you are NOT that weight, the spring is wrong for you.. Fact.

Why does Ohlins specifically state a sag measurement if it doesn't matter? Why do the guys I know who have worked on WSBK and AMA teams set sag if they have a new rider on their bikes? Why do they change spring rates on a per track basis? They change the rates because a spring is designed to work through a specific range of travel. This can be tailored to a specific LOAD that is generated (weight) dynamically.. A 125 lb MotoGP guy can generate a ton of load (weight), FAR more than a street rider or AFM level rider can, consequently, they need stiffer springs, because they are generating an appropriate load for that spring rate.

Road bikes only generate a narrow range of load and so we can figure out what that load is and allow for it, by choosing a spring rate that is appropriate for that load, which consists of rider weight and the amount of load that rider generates while riding. A 100 lb rider on a street bike on street tires (even at the track) will not generate the same load as an equivalent rider that weighs 250 lbs, the laws of physics dictate that; unless that 100 lb rider can somehow generate the same load as the 250 lb rider (and they can't if both riders are on the same equipment, same tires and are the same skill level).

Again, if springs don't matter and sag doesn't matter, then why does every single top end manufacturer of suspension specify sag settings and SPECIFICALLY state that you will need a different spring if you can't get that sag correct? Ohlins, K-Tech, Moton, JRZ, Penske Bi-Tubo ALL specify the sag range for their products and tell you to change the springs if you can't reach that figure.

I guess some people are so smart that they know more than Ohlins, Penske, Bi_tubo and actual people that have worked on AMA championship winning teams and set up the bikes.. INCLUDING SAG.... Yes... The guy that set up an AMA champion's suspension set his sag at each racetrack...

Dave Moss (and a few other suspension gurus) goes to every round of the AFM and other championship races and set up the suspension for many of the champions, including Rickey Corey (multiple AFM champion and sometime AMA rider) as well as the last 5 champions.. Guess what? He sets their sag and advises them on spring rates.