Ducati 1299 Suspension and Handling Settings

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80shilling said:
Pro race teams do check sag, I have personally seen them do it and they have a shelf full of springs to choose from and they have data on every track they go to as a baseline, plus they already know the weight of their rider. A motorcycle from the factory is set for a specific weight and if you are NOT that weight, the spring is wrong for you.. Fact.

Why does Ohlins specifically state a sag measurement if it doesn't matter? Why do the guys I know who have worked on WSBK and AMA teams set sag if they have a new rider on their bikes? Why do they change spring rates on a per track basis? They change the rates because a spring is designed to work through a specific range of travel. This can be tailored to a specific LOAD that is generated (weight) dynamically.. A 125 lb MotoGP guy can generate a ton of load (weight), FAR more than a street rider or AFM level rider can, consequently, they need stiffer springs, because they are generating an appropriate load for that spring rate.

Road bikes only generate a narrow range of load and so we can figure out what that load is and allow for it, by choosing a spring rate that is appropriate for that load, which consists of rider weight and the amount of load that rider generates while riding. A 100 lb rider on a street bike on street tires (even at the track) will not generate the same load as an equivalent rider that weighs 250 lbs, the laws of physics dictate that; unless that 100 lb rider can somehow generate the same load as the 250 lb rider (and they can't if both riders are on the same equipment, same tires and are the same skill level).

Again, if springs don't matter and sag doesn't matter, then why does every single top end manufacturer of suspension specify sag settings and SPECIFICALLY state that you will need a different spring if you can't get that sag correct? Ohlins, K-Tech, Moton, JRZ, Penske Bi-Tubo ALL specify the sag range for their products and tell you to change the springs if you can't reach that figure.

I guess some people are so smart that they know more than Ohlins, Penske, Bi_tubo and actual people that have worked on AMA championship winning teams and set up the bikes.. INCLUDING SAG.... Yes... The guy that set up an AMA champion's suspension set his sag at each racetrack...

Dave Moss (and a few other suspension gurus) goes to every round of the AFM and other championship races and set up the suspension for many of the champions, including Rickey Corey (multiple AFM champion and sometime AMA rider) as well as the last 5 champions.. Guess what? He sets their sag and advises them on spring rates.
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I am being sarcastic. Sorry.
 
P.S. Just got off the phone with Ohlins USA and talked to Matthew, who is one of the support team for the AMA races and YES.. He sets sag on ALL of the bikes he works on...

When I forwarded him some of the opinions that have been stated in this thread, he literally groaned in frustration.
 
Everyone has an opinion about suspension and here is mine;

1. your weight combined with the bikes weight and your styles of riding has a lot to do with suspension and how it reacts whether on the street or the track and tire wear. this includes 250's to 1000+ cc's. Track bikes, street bikes, cruisers and dirt bikes.

2. Some people are naturals and can ride anything regardless of bike setup and can react accordingly and there is some that cannot react accordingly so they need the bike setup to fit there riding style. This is true for the street/canyon carving or track.

3. If your front and rear does not work together on the street and track you are going down its just a matter of time.

4. Proper setup sag/spring rate/compression/rebound is important on or off the track.

5. I recommend everyone should play with your suspension setting and not just take the factory default. Dial in what you feel comfortable with. Don't be afraid of trying different adjustment its not rocket science. Do a little research it will help you handle the bike better.

I hate reading bad advice on these threads, get your suspension set up properly for the type of riding you will be doing whether street or track. It will only help you to be a better, safer and faster rider.
 
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80shilling said:
Pro race teams do check sag, I have personally seen them do it and they have a shelf full of springs to choose from and they have data on every track they go to as a baseline, plus they already know the weight of their rider. A motorcycle from the factory is set for a specific weight and if you are NOT that weight, the spring is wrong for you.. Fact.
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That's what I've always been told
 
It just goes to show that truth is often elusive in the internet age and you know what they say about opinions...

The best approach is seek out a consensus of (true) experts on a given subject, and that assumes a true, empirical scientific approach can be used (observable, testable, verifiable in real time)

Some people believe we "evolved" from apes. Laughable nonsense to any logical person, but "fact" to some "experts".
 
All I can say is on the "S" model is the rear spring is for a 210lb rider as far as I know. Which is close to my weight. I have tried adjusting the settings to harder and softer in the menu and didnt like it. I am unsure of the spring rate in the forks on the S model. So for now I will leave mine in fixed mode and let the bike do the work until I drop more body weight where the electronics can no longer compensate for mechanical issues such as spring rates
 
fzr100098 said:
Some people believe we "evolved" from apes. Laughable nonsense to any logical person, but "fact" to some "experts".
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Oh dear.......theological arguments on a motorcycle forum, I'm not touching that one, a whole other thread in the lounge I think. I believe that Prince Albert posted a video on just this topic. :D
 
Don't touch it, because I own the origins debate after 20+ years on many forums - I've heard it all

Bacteria to man evolution is nonsense - the end. Adaptation/speciation/selection/genetic drift within fixed genus/family lines is fact. Everything else is garbage conjecture.
 
Haha...good for you, like I said, not for this forum. :D
 
Grayson said:
Leon, Wilkson...Your input please?
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I don't really have much . I work with a suspension tech at the track but really don't change too much least of all make dramatic changes .
I agree mostly with Chaotic he has similar thoughts to me .
Every bike I get I make a base point and work from there take notes and like said before make small changes when needed . But I make these changes for my own riding style . Two guys same weight same bike same speed will use different settings depending on their riding style it really should be tailor made .
 
wilkson said:
Every bike I get I make a base point and work from there take notes and like said before make small changes when needed . But I make these changes for my own riding style . Two guys same weight same bike same speed will use different settings depending on their riding style it really should be tailor made .
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Well said.
 
Setting sag is just a method to get a baseline starting point, it's not the end result for a high-level setup. I've had that argument at the track many times while helping people with their setup. They say they set their sag to 36.823mm because that's what some expert on a forum told them to set it to. Then I tell them they need to add preload because their bike is riding too low in the front, and they resist because then their sag "won't be right". Tough to get the point across that what the bike is actually doing on the track trumps what it's doing sitting in the pits.
 
shakazulu12 said:
First thing I learned hanging out with an actual pro race team about suspension, they never check sag. Chaotic listed all the things they worry about first.
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shakazulu12 said:
Slow down and think about it a little bit more. Chaotic's perspective comes from racing, and racing at the pointy end of the pack. Think of it another way, your wife and Marquez weigh about the same. You think he's running the same springs and valving she would? I've jumped on local fast kids bikes and they were almost always setup way stiffer than mine were, despite me having weight on them. Why? They are faster and generate way more force in all directions.

For us normal guys, it's not that big a deal and spring weights will move up and down with rider weight generally. But fast people operate on a different planet then us.
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Exactly.

He is putting words into my mouth. Never did I say spring rates aren't important. They are very important. However, the way the bike reacts to you sitting on it in the pits is irrelevant.

The sag hasn't been checked on any of my race bikes in probably 7 years. A good friend of mine is a multi-time AMA winner, Daytona 200 winner and former WSS Factory Triumph racer, and he admitted that they NEVER check the sag on his bike. His Ohlins suspension tuner (who is also the tuner for some other AMA teams) agreed; they never check the sag on his bike.

And BTW - he is the guy I was talking about that weighs 135lbs and uses 1.10 springs (225+lbs) at most places. What do you reckon his sag numbers are? He holds more than one lap record, but please feel free to tell him he is wrong and he needs to worry about getting his sag numbers right.

Sag is good for somebody that has no clue where they are. It basically gives you a very generic, baseline setup that will help you keep the suspension in its normal working zone, in normal circumstances. Sure, if somebody buys a new street bike, has no prior knowledge on spring rates, by all means go for it.

But I stand by my original statement, bodyweight is not a factor when it comes to setting up suspension. What matters is how the bike feels, how the bike turns under braking and on the gas, how the bike utilizes the "happy zone" of suspension travel, rider preference (some people prefer to ride higher up in the stroke), tire wear, things of that nature. And none of those things are bodyweight dependent.
 
wilkson said:
I don't really have much . I work with a suspension tech at the track but really don't change too much least of all make dramatic changes .
I agree mostly with Chaotic he has similar thoughts to me .
Every bike I get I make a base point and work from there take notes and like said before make small changes when needed . But I make these changes for my own riding style . Two guys same weight same bike same speed will use different settings depending on their riding style it really should be tailor made .
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That is exactly my point.

Nowhere in any of my posts did I say spring rate is unimportant. The springs are being changed in my 1299S before I even take delivery of it.

You can have 2 riders that weigh 175lbs, riding the same bike, on the same track, and will end up with different spring rates.

Spring rates vary based upon many circumstances. There is no way anybody can sit on the bike in the pits, set the sag, and then say "ok, im good...run it" and leave it at that. Again, setup is a living entity that changes often based upon many variables.

If I ran the spring rates required to get the sag numbers right, my bike only works right when I am coaching (riding at a reduced pace). As soon as I get to race pace, it bottoms out under braking and runs wide on exits.

And vice versa. When my bike is setup for racing, it handles like .... when I am coaching. It basically feels like I am riding on bricks. Exception being when I am coaching someone who is running at the front of the Advanced group, it will ride ok then. But short of that, it rides like im on bricks.
 
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Let's take an extreme case: 260 lb rider on bone stock R6. How could that guy ever be fast with the stock springs? I get what you're saying but again this seems to be another expert who goes by feel vs. newer rider issue
 
fzr100098 said:
Let's take an extreme case: 260 lb rider on bone stock R6. How could that guy ever be fast with the stock springs? I get what you're saying but again this seems to be another expert who goes by feel vs. newer rider issue
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I don't think I read any comments that said springs/valving changes wouldn't be a good idea. I think the problem with the conversation is people picking bits and pieces out of the posts and not looking at the overall content of the message.

Springs/sag reccomendations are a good baseline. You tweak it from there based on actual performance. The higher up the skill ladder you are, the less you are going to look at sag IMHO.
 
Im just going to take a poop before I ride to drop weight and leave my suspension alone.
 
Grayson said:
Im just going to take a poop before I ride to drop weight and leave my suspension alone.
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Since nobody has bothered with giving a correct answer, I'll go ahead and just handle this.


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