Ducati Corse Oil - Special Oil developed by Shell and Ducati Corse

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craig bush said:
My understanding of viscosity (and ambient temp effect on an ICE) is different from yours, but I’m no subject matter expert.

Are you a petroleum engineer?
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I worked as an expert in diesel oil certification for Mercedes-Benz for over 50 years. I have worked as an expert witness in many Court cases. Let’s just say the Petroleum industries reputation for obfuscation is well deserved. One other point to remember, modern oil is now considered to be an integral part of the emission system. Fuel economy and wear protection are not friends.
 
SuperDomestique said:
I ride into work on my V4 and some early mornings the temp is about 45-50°F (7-10°C). Bike is garage stored and it’s probably about 60°F (15°C). I let it warm up a few mins while getting gear on and usually has 2 bars on the water temp gauge as I set off. As I get on the highway, water temp then decreases to 1 bar and as I wind my way through surface streets that progressively increases until the fans kick in at around 3 bars.

Would it be worth putting 10W-40 during the cooler months? Hope I’m not rogering my engine with these heavier weight oil
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Engines need to get to their operating temperature as quickly as possible. Don’t let it idle for a couple of minutes. After a cold start, give it 10 seconds to wake up and start riding at a moderate pace until the coolant temperature reaches 180F. Then you’re good to go. The oil temperature takes a little longer. The fans come on when the coolant temperature is 212F or higher. My MV Agusta fans don’t come on until 230F. I put a manual switch to turn them on when the engine hits 180F. In my case, starting the fans early keeps the engine temperature noticeably lower when I’m stuck in traffic on hot days. Your weather is much cooler, but the engine is still really hot when the fans kick on.
Oil temperature is far more important. You want the oil to get to about 210F as quick as it can. It needs to be that hot in order to volatilize condensation and fuel dilution. Condensation and fuel dilution are highest during cold idling. Unfortunately manufacturers don’t give us a oil temperature gauge. You’ll be okay with 10W/40 for your specific riding. Don’t forget, 10 is the base viscosity of the oil. 10W/50 or 10W/60 are exactly the same. They will however, try to maintain the base viscosity to higher temperatures. This is actually verified as the Viscosity Index (VI) on the oil’s Material Data Sheet. The higher the VI, the better the oil maintains the base viscosity at higher temperatures.
 
VYRUS said:
Engines need to get to their operating temperature as quickly as possible. Don’t let it idle for a couple of minutes. After a cold start, give it 10 seconds to wake up and start riding at a moderate pace until the coolant temperature reaches 180F. Then you’re good to go. The oil temperature takes a little longer. The fans come on when the coolant temperature is 212F or higher. My MV Agusta fans don’t come on until 230F. I put a manual switch to turn them on when the engine hits 180F. In my case, starting the fans early keeps the engine temperature noticeably lower when I’m stuck in traffic on hot days. Your weather is much cooler, but the engine is still really hot when the fans kick on.
Oil temperature is far more important. You want the oil to get to about 210F as quick as it can. It needs to be that hot in order to volatilize condensation and fuel dilution. Condensation and fuel dilution are highest during cold idling. Unfortunately manufacturers don’t give us a oil temperature gauge. You’ll be okay with 10W/40 for your specific riding. Don’t forget, 10 is the base viscosity of the oil. 10W/50 or 10W/60 are exactly the same. They will however, try to maintain the base viscosity to higher temperatures. This is actually verified as the Viscosity Index (VI) on the oil’s Material Data Sheet. The higher the VI, the better the oil maintains the base viscosity at higher temperatures.
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Is this why you see race teams blipping the throttle to get the bike up to operating temps as quick as possible?

This would also explain why I feel the clutch grab differently when colder ambient temps. During these colder months the oil is more viscous and probably harder to squeeze out from the clutch plates
 
I'm gathering it is more expensive to manufacture an oil to maintain it's base viscosity at higher temps then? Otherwise what is the point of having a 10W-30, 10W40, 10W-50 and 10W-60 when essentially they'll all do the same job as the 10W-60?
 
There’s a whole lot of motor oil details that the vyrus guy(?) isn’t stating above. Just more generalities. Ask him how multigrade oils are actually formulated. They aren’t magic because they’re “synthetic”. The synthetics are certainly more stable and maintain their base viscosity over a wider temp range than “conventional” motor oils. Even the best synthetics require additives of polymers that expand or “thicken” at high temps. Diesel oils are not formulated to meet the same lubrication specs as “regular” oils, but he didn't mention that either.
Working as an expert in the certification of something specific as diesel oils doesn’t say an engineer-level expert, just a lot of experience in running the testing, like a lab tech. Anyway, don’t take his(?) word, or mine either. Go to the actual engineer(s) whose job is to develop and formulate the actual lubricants.
 
Mcv4 said:
….. what is the point of having a 10W-30, 10W40, 10W-50 and 10W-60 when essentially they'll all do the same job as the 10W-60?
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Every “step” up the viscosity range requires more of the polymers. The problem is those polymers “wear out” and thicken the oil such that it can’t lubricate. The engineers must balance the multi viscosity effects with the intended oil life and lubrication performance. Again, do your research with valid lubrication engineers, not forum “experts”.
 
The manual calls for 15W-50 oil for the Desmosidici Stradale engine. In light of the different HTHS of 10W and 15W oils, would switching to 10W during cooler months provide adequate lubrication of the engine?
 
You have a very high strung true race engine. I assume from your location it's a warm climate. I also assume you don't ride this thing every day to work in heavy traffic. Ester synthetic API group 5 oils are significantly different from other types of petroleum based oils. I assume your typical ride is over 10 miles, no short trips. I wouldn't use 10W/40, unless you ride short trips. I have a MV Agusta 312 Corse with similar HP & heat. I use Redline 20W/60 Motorcycle oil year round. If you prefer Motul, I would use their 15W/60 300V Motorcycle oil year round.

I thought you might enjoy this photo. Ducati ask if I would send my MH900e Carbon Dream to the TT for David Hailwood to ride in a lap of honor for his Dad. While I was there I stopped at the Crosby for diner and this Desmosidici was in the parking lot. A very rare photo op.


TT AND MH copy.png
 
My V4R is a trackbike, so yea I'm running it high-strung as hell. What I have worried about with a higher base is that it might now move around good enough on startup thru all the little nooks and crannies this engine has.
 
Skydivr said:
My V4R is a trackbike, so yea I'm running it high-strung as hell. What I have worried about with a higher base is that it might now move around good enough on startup thru all the little nooks and crannies this engine has.
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You definitely need Motul 300V 15W/60 M/C oil or Red Line 20W/60 M/C oil.
Theses are Ester synthetic. Completely different from other oils. Ester molecules are attracted to metal. The oil doesn’t drain away when you shut it off. A film of oil sticks to all metal parts. These oils also have the highest HTHS of any oil. HTHS is critically when you have that thing wound tight. Ducati’s $45 race oil is a very thin viscosity. That’s for the least internal resistance. It’s great if your job is to win races and somebody else is paying for the overhauls, they’ll also be paying for the oil. I’m assuming you’re the title sponsor for your bike, so reliability is paramount. If you really want more technical information, send me a message and I’ll send it to you.
I promise, these two oils are the very best money can buy. That engine will not fail because of the oil.
 
VYRUS said:
You have a very high strung true race engine. I assume from your location it's a warm climate. I also assume you don't ride this thing every day to work in heavy traffic. Ester synthetic API group 5 oils are significantly different from other types of petroleum based oils. I assume your typical ride is over 10 miles, no short trips. I wouldn't use 10W/40, unless you ride short trips. I have a MV Agusta 312 Corse with similar HP & heat. I use Redline 20W/60 Motorcycle oil year round. If you prefer Motul, I would use their 15W/60 300V Motorcycle oil year round.

I thought you might enjoy this photo. Ducati ask if I would send my MH900e Carbon Dream to the TT for David Hailwood to ride in a lap of honor for his Dad. While I was there I stopped at the Crosby for diner and this Desmosidici was in the parking lot. A very rare photo op.


View attachment 52178
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Thanks for the heads up. Will keep with the 15W-50 for Fall-Spring months and switch over to the 15W-60 stuff for the summer/track day months for that added stability.

Any thoughts on filters? Are OEM Ducati filters any better than the HiFlo ones? They look pretty much the same. I’m assuming HiFlo make the Ducati ones they look so similar
 
SuperDomestique said:
Thanks for the heads up. Will keep with the 15W-50 for Fall-Spring months and switch over to the 15W-60 stuff for the summer/track day months for that added stability.

Any thoughts on filters? Are OEM Ducati filters any better than the HiFlo ones? They look pretty much the same. I’m assuming HiFlo make the Ducati ones they look so similar
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They’re both the same. Stay away from stainless steel reusable filters.
If you have the most common Ducati spin-on filter they’ve used on everything except the V4, Ducati actually makes a racing filter. I have the part number someplace. I prefer the K&N. I like the nut on the cap that’s drilled for safety wire. I’m not sure I trust the race filter. No reason. I’m old and slow. You can help the filter by putting a bunch of super magnets on the filter. They help remove the ferrous metals in the oil. I’ve actually thought about using a Donaldson Blue oil filter. Donaldson makes the very best diesel oil filters in the world. I know they have one that’s the right size, but I haven’t had time to figure it out. Plus the K&N hasn’t been a problem. If you have the cartridge type, the stock Ducati is fine. If you’re still within warranty, only genuine Ducati.
 
Yeah I'm my own title sponsor :) I'm more than willing to trade that extra 3 HP, for some reliability and longer engine life. It's why I actually honored the breakin period rather than several other owners I saw bring their bike to out trackdays with less than 100 miles on them and ride them flat out.

Lastly, anyone catching a false neutral between 3d and 4th?
 
n
Skydivr said:
Yeah I'm my own title sponsor :) I'm more than willing to trade that extra 3 HP, for some reliability and longer engine life. It's why I actually honored the breakin period rather than several other owners I saw bring their bike to out trackdays with less than 100 miles on them and ride them flat out.

Lastly, anyone catching a false neutral between 3d and 4th?
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no
 
VYRUS said:
You definitely need Motul 300V 15W/60 M/C oil or Red Line 20W/60 M/C oil.
Theses are Ester synthetic. Completely different from other oils. Ester molecules are attracted to metal. The oil doesn’t drain away when you shut it off. A film of oil sticks to all metal parts. These oils also have the highest HTHS of any oil. HTHS is critically when you have that thing wound tight. Ducati’s $45 race oil is a very thin viscosity. That’s for the least internal resistance. It’s great if your job is to win races and somebody else is paying for the overhauls, they’ll also be paying for the oil. I’m assuming you’re the title sponsor for your bike, so reliability is paramount. If you really want more technical information, send me a message and I’ll send it to you.
I promise, these two oils are the very best money can buy. That engine will not fail because of the oil.
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same advice for 1299 bikes buddy? I'm in Texas, ride year round, running distilled water and water/wetter. Bike never sees temps below 35F in the garage
 
SirJAG said:
same advice for 1299 bikes buddy? I'm in Texas, ride year round, running distilled water and water/wetter. Bike never sees temps below 35F in the garage
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Engine Ice will reduce your engine temp 3-4 degrees over water wetter.
 
Evans has a permanent coolant approved for track use. It has a much higher boiling point. You must follow special flushing procedures.
The other thing that really helps lower the coolant temperature is to install a manual switch and relay so you can switch on the cooling fans much sooner than the ECU. By you switching on the fans when the coolant temperature reaches 180F, you get a head start on maintaining the optimal cooling temperature. The ideal temperature is 190F to 200F. You’ll even notice the engine temperature at racing speeds is much lower with the fans on. I’ve never figured that one out. At 150mph the air speed across the radiator is like a hurricane. How can a dinky fan help? It does. I’ve tried every trick in the book; from electric water pumps, big radiators, aluminum cooling pipes, special water pump impellers, air ducts, no thermostat…. nothing works like a manual switch.
 
VYRUS said:
Evans has a permanent coolant approved for track use. It has a much higher boiling point. You must follow special flushing procedures.
The other thing that really helps lower the coolant temperature is to install a manual switch and relay so you can switch on the cooling fans much sooner than the ECU. By you switching on the fans when the coolant temperature reaches 180F, you get a head start on maintaining the optimal cooling temperature. The ideal temperature is 190F to 200F. You’ll even notice the engine temperature at racing speeds is much lower with the fans on. I’ve never figured that one out. At 150mph the air speed across the radiator is like a hurricane. How can a dinky fan help? It does. I’ve tried every trick in the book; from electric water pumps, big radiators, aluminum cooling pipes, special water pump impellers, air ducts, no thermostat…. nothing works like a manual switch.
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Most of the tunes available allow you to set the fans to come on and stay on until an earlier temperature. My radiator has done a pretty good job of keeping the engine cooler than the stock radiator. Constantly runs a bar lower across ambient temperature ranges and track days.
 
sorry to interrupt the discussion, but do we have proof of this 3,5 hp increment?
Another question, do we have already high mileage v4r or dry clucthed v4 to collect data for its reliability?
I am really curious.
 

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