Engine Breaking or Trail Breaking..?

DUCENZO · Jun 4, 2012

I love engine braking when riding aggressively, I feel more stable and precise with my entry speed on corners. I even prefer my traction set around 1 or 2 to allow my rear to slide while down shifting before corners..(engine braking set to off).

A little side note, yes TC intrudes not only when accelerating but while downshifting hard. If your TC is set too high your rear tire will skip enstead of sliding (backing it in)

I am kinda stuck in my ways so trail breaking is not a common habbit of mine, unless things get sticky (over cook the corner, meaning entry speed too fast)

Which do you prefer and why?

DUCENZO · Jun 4, 2012

I guess this thread is too technical for you guys??

either that or i'm not very much liked

TOPDUC · Jun 4, 2012

DUCENZO said:
I guess this thread is too technical for you guys??

either that or i'm not very much liked

Too technical? Hardly. It just seems a bit "off-center" as you have already defined the "problem", which is your riding "style". Your issue sounds like you are trying to rely on the new slipper clutch to smooth out the shock to the rear tire when "downshifting agressively" to slide the rear under full engine braking. The new wet version isn't up to the task like the dry versions.

If you insist on using pure high rpm engine braking rather than trailing the rear brake to slide the rear, then you're going to need a better slipper, OR you can turn the EBS "on" and try each of the 3 settings to which one works to stop the chatter.

Less engine braking should smooth out the chatter, but will require more front brake to hit the same stopping force.

Is the DTC light "active" during your problems? I don't see the DTC as contributing to your issue at all unless you're holding the throttle open on corner entry.

doctorj · Jun 4, 2012

DUCENZO said:
I love engine breaking when riding aggressively, I feel more stable and precise with my entry speed on corners. I even prefer my traction set around 1 or 2 to allow my rear to slide while down shifting before corners..(engine breaking set to off).

A little side note, yes TC intrudes not only when accelerating but while downshifting hard. If your TC is set too high your rear tire will skip enstead of sliding (backing it in)

I am kinda stuck in my ways so trail breaking is not a common hannit of mine, unless things get sticky (over cook the corner, meaning entry speed too fast)

Which do you prefer and why?

I'm speachless, TopDuc, that was mighty nice of you, I would have said something I regreted...

Ducenzo, most if not everything you said was incorrect regaurding how the bike works and I would get out to a local track day and get some education.

doctorj · Jun 4, 2012

And to answer your question, trail braking is the proper way to enter a corner fast. There are many reasons, but loading your front tire and optimising your bike geometry to allow fast turn in is a big one.

DUCENZO · Jun 4, 2012

TOPDUC said:
Too technical? Hardly. It just seems a bit "off-center" as you have already defined the "problem", which is your riding "style". Your issue sounds like you are trying to rely on the new slipper clutch to smooth out the shock to the rear tire when "downshifting agressively" to slide the rear under full engine braking. The new wet version isn't up to the task like the dry versions.

If you insist on using pure high rpm engine braking rather than trailing the rear brake to slide the rear, then you're going to need a better slipper, OR you can turn the EBS "on" and try each of the 3 settings to which one works to stop the chatter.

Less engine braking should smooth out the chatter, but will require more front brake to hit the same stopping force.

Is the DTC light "active" during your problems? I don't see the DTC as contributing to your issue at all unless you're holding the throttle open on corner entry.

HAHA that's funny. not once did I mention having a problem sir...I mearly was generating a convo about different riding style.

I explained my riding style, which gets me around very quickly

.

I dont have rear tire chatter, I specifically mentioned that... EBS is not my style. And no DTC doesn't intervene during my engine breaking with the settings I mentioned, only on exiting the corner as I like I it.

appreciate your feedback tho, someone will learn someting from it.

Why not answer my question on what YOU prefer and why, as oppose to all the above?

cheers

DRSapp · Jun 4, 2012

DUCENZO said:
I guess this thread is too technical for you guys??

either that or i'm not very much liked...

Not at all.. just trying to understand the question "Engine Breaking or Trail Breaking".. really? that's a question? I don't want to Break my engine or my trail..

I like the feeling of the engine braking of the big twin on the road, though doesn't really relate to the track as much. I like the rear to stay inline if possible, using the slipper clutch to help cope with down shifting.

Trail Braking is useful though one needs to be careful not to overload the front tire - it has a lot of work to do on corner entry as it is. I do most of my braking prior to turn in, trailing the front brake off as I lean in more till I reach my fully desired lean, at which point I'm already off the brake and back on the gas to shift some of the weight off the front tire to the rear. Rough guess is that at initial turn in I would say I'm still at ~ 80% braking effort, trailing off to ~30% after ~20deg of lean and completely off by 50deg and more.

That's what I prefer though doesn't always happen like that.

TOPDUC · Jun 4, 2012

doctorj said:
....Topduc, most if not everything you said was incorrect regaurding how the bike works and I would get out to a local track day and get some education.

Well doc, I'm thinking you're the one who is "incorrect" at this point.

TOPDUC · Jun 4, 2012

doctorj said:
And to answer your question, trail braking is the proper way to enter a corner fast. There are many reasons, but loading your front tire and optimising your bike geometry to allow fast turn in is a big one.

Well, we can agree on this one... for the most part. Depending on the entry speed and corner radius, a bit of rear brake can bring the rear out to assist in getting the bike turned for the drive out.

TOPDUC · Jun 4, 2012

DUCENZO said:
...Why not answer my question on what YOU prefer and why, as oppose to all the above?...

I'll get there eventually, but your post contained a functional error on DTC and some gramatical errors (break vs brake) which kinda turned me off. Does your bike have ABS?

TOPDUC · Jun 4, 2012

DRSapp said:
Not at all.. just trying to understand the question "Engine Breaking or Trail Breaking".. really? that's a question? I don't want to Break my engine or my trail..

I like the feeling of the engine braking of the big twin on the road, though doesn't really relate to the track as much. I like the rear to stay inline if possible, using the slipper clutch to help cope with down shifting.

Trail Braking is useful though one needs to be careful not to overload the front tire - it has a lot of work to do on corner entry as it is. I do most of my braking prior to turn in, trailing the front brake off as I lean in more till I reach my fully desired lean, at which point I'm already off the brake and back on the gas to shift some of the weight off the front tire to the rear. Rough guess is that at initial turn in I would say I'm still at ~ 80% braking effort, trailing off to ~30% after ~20deg of lean and completely off by 50deg and more.

That's what I prefer though doesn't always happen like that.

Well put DR. I agree completely.

doctorj · Jun 4, 2012

TOPDUC said:
Well doc, I'm thinking you're the one who is "incorrect" at this point.

Oh damn, what was I incorrect about? I've been racing for over thirty years and had my share of success, maybe I misspoke or your not understanding a point I made.

If one does not load the front tire then you cant go fast, its called mechanical grip.

Anyway it does not matter, I read all these crazy posts on this site and it baffles me the miss information.

Have fun, ride safe! That all that matters.

doctorj · Jun 4, 2012

I just realized my mistake, I used the wrong name!! Re read my first post ...lol

"Topduc <--( wrong ) and I would get out to a local track day and get some education. "

I meant "DUCENZO" , my bad no wonder... sorry. Just though a he should get some track day expericance so to use the bike properly.

DUCENZO · Jun 4, 2012

DRSapp said:
Not at all.. just trying to understand the question "Engine Breaking or Trail Breaking".. really? that's a question? I don't want to Break my engine or my trail..

I like the feeling of the engine braking of the big twin on the road, though doesn't really relate to the track as much. I like the rear to stay inline if possible, using the slipper clutch to help cope with down shifting.

Trail Braking is useful though one needs to be careful not to overload the front tire - it has a lot of work to do on corner entry as it is. I do most of my braking prior to turn in, trailing the front brake off as I lean in more till I reach my fully desired lean, at which point I'm already off the brake and back on the gas to shift some of the weight off the front tire to the rear. Rough guess is that at initial turn in I would say I'm still at ~ 80% braking effort, trailing off to ~30% after ~20deg of lean and completely off by 50deg and more.

That's what I prefer though doesn't always happen like that.

TOPDUC said:
I'll get there eventually, but your post contained a functional error on DTC and some gramatical errors (break vs brake) which kinda turned me off. Does your bike have ABS?

My appologies guys, for my grammer that is... Mean Braking.

what I was simply saying is that I ride hard and am fast through turns with very little braking...I DONT ENTER CORNERS STILL BRAKING, BY THE TIME I'M AT MY ENTRY POINT READY TO LEAN IN, IM ALREADY ON THE THROTTLE. 90% FOR THE TIME IM ON THE TROTTLE THROUGH THE WHOLE TURN...UNLESS I MISCALCULATE AND COME IN TOO HOT.

Not trying to sound like im bragging but this works for me and im very good with it...when we do a ride out im usually leading tha pack...just for that reason. im fast through corners

Guys are me how come they dont see my break light, well...thats my technique.

Guys, there's no absolute right way to do any of this, but there's definately many wrong ways...we can pin point bad habbits with even GP guys, but it works for them

all you guys have good point tho and i'll continue to strive to improve but it's hard to change what you're doing when you're already in front right?

TOPDUC · Jun 5, 2012

doctorj said:
Oh damn, what was I incorrect about? I've been racing for over thirty years and had my share of success, maybe I misspoke or your not understanding a point I made.

If one does not load the front tire then you cant go fast, its called mechanical grip.

Anyway it does not matter, I read all these crazy posts on this site and it baffles me the miss information.

Have fun, ride safe! That all that matters.

Yep, we're definitely talking around each other and missing something. I'm agreeing with your points, so maybe you missunderstood mine? Anyway, we can certainly agree on your last statement! FUN is the word!

TOPDUC · Jun 5, 2012

doctorj said:
I just realized my mistake, I used the wrong name!! Re read my first post ...lol

"Topduc <--( wrong ) and I would get out to a local track day and get some education. "

I meant "DUCENZO" , my bad no wonder... sorry. Just though a he should get some track day expericance so to use the bike properly.

No worries doc!

TOPDUC · Jun 5, 2012

DUCENZO said:
....i'll continue to strive to improve but it's hard to change what you're doing when you're already in front right?

Well there you have it! If it's working well for you then it can't be "wrong". Well, until someone doing it "better" is faster... and that is ALWAYS the case!

LOL, even Stoner and Checa are getting whipped now and then.

DUCENZO · Jun 5, 2012

Good feedback guys, information is free so thank... And like you said, have fun and ride safe.

I know about loading the front tire and suspension guys, and I'm familiar with the geometry and how breaking and even body postition affects taking corners.

Like I said, my style works for me safely and quick...Ive never had a low side or high side for that matter with my technique.

Most guys judge their lean angle by their rear tire "chicken strip" lol. I tell em when you start flirting with the edge of the front tire then you can talk to me....dragging knee doesnt make you fast, while they're busy trying to drag knee on every corner I'll be exiting the corner.

Unfortunately we all can't meet up at a track and see who consistently gets around quickest.

Thanks tho, knowledge is power

TOPDUC · Jun 5, 2012

ducenzo said:
..... Knowledge is power

qft!

DRSapp · Jun 5, 2012

TOPDUC said:
qft!

Quantitative feedback theory? what does that have to do w.... Oh - Never mind.

There is Truth in that quote.

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