Lowsided her at Spa..

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It always hurt to see or hear about laying the bike and glad you are ok with minor injuries. Respect for you for tracking your bad ass R and using her as what it was meant to do.
 
NOOOO! So hard to see your bike half destroyed like that. Looks mostly cosmetic--and I'm sure you'll have her back again soon. Happened so damn fast....

Most importantly you're not injured and didn't take anyone else out in the process.
 
Bad luck Kope just one of those things hey . Get it fixed and get back out there .
Wicked track great riding .
Talking about hanging off the bike more . I find body position to be critical holding the bike up more to use more usable grip can some times be the key to not low siding not saying this is the reason for your crash . .... happens .
 
Gutted for you, good to hear you're ok! I nearly did exactly the same at that corner about a week ago.

Good luck getting the bike back up and running. Spa left mine with an oil leak from the aft cylinder & the switchgear not working! Fantastic track though!
 
Spa left mine with an oil leak from the aft cylinder & the switchgear not working! Fantastic track though!

You better check on TSB 881 for a wiring harness update, if you haven't already. You can search for it on here, it is the permanent cure for left switchgear intermittent failure, almost always brought on by heat.
 
Hey Kope, sorry about your crash. I'm glad you weren't seriously hurt and your positive attitude is inspirational. Your plans for the bike and its repair sounds fantastic!!

If you don't mind, what gear were you wearing. It seems it protected you very well. This info could be beneficial to other members.
 
If you don't mind, what gear were you wearing. It seems it protected you very well. This info could be beneficial to other members.

This was from Google Earth and from the pose, I think he's a Rossi fan. Looks like the new Dainese Torque In boots and D-air race suit.
 

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Forgive my arrogance but is EBC3 the crutch for not even attempting to downshift properly at any point during the entire video?

Also, I am sorry you wrecked. Glad you're OK.
 
Forgive my arrogance but is EBC3 the crutch for not even attempting to downshift properly at any point during the entire video?

Arrogance? You mean ignorance of "proper" downshifting. Like this guy who's raced the Ducati Desmosedici GP and who's kicking ass on the Panigale in STK 1000 right now:

On Board Canepa Jerez Ducati 1199 Panigale - YouTube

F'n internet experts...:rolleyes:
 
Forgive my arrogance but is EBC3 the crutch for not even attempting to downshift properly at any point during the entire video?

Also, I am sorry you wrecked. Glad you're OK.

You might wish to explain what you mean.....
 
I don't know what you're trying to say in response. I understand how you might be confused in my round about way of asking if EBC3 was the crutch for not having to rev match while you down shift. AKA, using the ECU to keep your back wheel from locking up. Judging from the video you linked, someone riding much more aggressively does not seem to have the back wheel lock up (as much) when downshifting with no rev matching. Although if you watch he rev matches half the time and the other half he just shifts down and you can see the back get a bit squirrelly (but he keeps it together because of his obviously large testicles packed with skill). From what I understand in the owners manual, EBC3 offers the LEAST engine braking, which in my mind says it keeps the throttle open to keep the revs higher when you downshift and that EBC0 is the MOST engine braking, which to me sounds like it is 100% up to the rider to control the throttle to keep the back wheel from locking up during aggressive downshifts.

Am I IGNORANT in my understanding of the EBC control or am I ARROGANT for questioning the function of EBC/calling it a crutch for improper technique?

P.S. None of this has any bearing on why OP had a crash, it was just an observation I made during the 12 minute video of his track riding.

Directed @ JeffD not XIXCIX
 
Man you are racing at Spa!!! Spa! Eau Rouge, a corner I've only ever seen on TV.

I love hearing Europeans talking glibly about Spa, Assen, Nurburgring, Le Mans - you are very very lucky indeed to be in the heart of racing.

I know many guys that would be prepared to endure a low-side just to be able to track the bike there or any of those amazing, legendary circuits!

My nearest world class circuit is 5,000km away at Philip Island and I will get there one day soon. Until then we plug away at our local circuits :D

Regardless, sorry to see you go down.
 
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Maybe English is not your first language. Read your sentence again:
Forgive my arrogance but is EBC3 the crutch for not even attempting to downshift properly at any point during the entire video?

If you don't think that's clearly condescending to the OP, then we'll agree to disagree. And then you're flatly wrong. Go to 3:33 on the OP's video and watch him fan the clutch for 3 gears downshifting into Les Combes at the end of the front straight after Eau Rouge, perfectly matching revs. That's not the only place he does it. So he uses different techniques where he sees fit. Pretty advanced riding.

Regarding the EBC, its main function is to limit engine back torque when on trailing throttle, adjusting the rate at which the rear wheel slows in comparison to the front wheel - which causes the rear to slide - and can be used to adjust attitude of the bike entering a corner if the rider has the requisite skill. The slipper clutch present in all 1199s is the primary method to reduce the differential between engine speed and gearbox speed when down-shifting, again reducing the abruptness of the rear wheel slowing down more than the front, causing a slide. Lastly, have you lurked enough to know the OP and his modifications to his bike? They are extensive. He's running a different engine management system and perhaps even an adjustable clutch. Again, I saw it working fine for him and his pace.

No one asked you to criticize, so if you're going to, at least be specific and try to be at least correct. E.g. this gem from your rebuttal:

AKA, using the ECU to keep your back wheel from locking up.

You think the ECU is a magical "black box" that will automatically match your revs to the next lower gear when you downshift like a Ferrari 458 Italia? It is the choreography of feet and hands working the clutch, throttle and gear shift after sufficient practice that produces a matched-rev downshift. The ECU is simply providing air/fuel mixture based on environmental conditions and sensors in the bike when you twist the throttle, nothing more. Even EBC uses algorithms of throttle openings executed on trailing throttle to modify the characteristic of engine braking.

A separate system with dedicated ECU is capable of auto-throttle blipping to specifically rev-match, but does not come on any OEM bike:

Awesome Yamaha R1 & R6 CABS Automatic Throttle Blipper - YouTube

Did we watch the same video? The video you posted and the OPs are entirely different in all things.

See above. You have repeatedly proved yourself a riding technique troll. I'll let you in on something. The truly fast guys don't critique unless they're asked. I've read your riding critiques on other threads here and frankly you don't come off as someone that actually has the experience of what you attempt to malign others for not doing. You probably have attended a few schools, made some huge strides in your personal ability, maybe even been bumped up to the next group at your track days recently. Your arrogance betrays your neophytism as does your erroneous discourse on the topic. So I'm adding you to my ignore list.
 
Maybe English is not your first language. Read your sentence again:


If you don't think that's clearly condescending to the OP, then we'll agree to disagree. And then you're flatly wrong. Go to 3:33 on the OP's video and watch him fan the clutch for 3 gears downshifting into Les Combes at the end of the front straight after Eau Rouge, perfectly matching revs. That's not the only place he does it. So he uses different techniques where he sees fit. Pretty advanced riding.

Regarding the EBC, its main function is to limit engine back torque when on trailing throttle, adjusting the rate at which the rear wheel slows in comparison to the front wheel - which causes the rear to slide - and can be used to adjust attitude of the bike entering a corner if the rider has the requisite skill. The slipper clutch present in all 1199s is the primary method to reduce the differential between engine speed and gearbox speed when down-shifting, again reducing the abruptness of the rear wheel slowing down more than the front, causing a slide. Lastly, have you lurked enough to know the OP and his modifications to his bike? They are extensive. He's running a different engine management system and perhaps even an adjustable clutch. Again, I saw it working fine for him and his pace.

No one asked you to criticize, so if you're going to, at least be specific and try to be at least correct. E.g. this gem from your rebuttal:



You think the ECU is a magical "black box" that will automatically match your revs to the next lower gear when you downshift like a Ferrari 458 Italia? It is the choreography of feet and hands working the clutch, throttle and gear shift after sufficient practice that produces a matched-rev downshift. The ECU is simply providing air/fuel mixture based on environmental conditions and sensors in the bike when you twist the throttle, nothing more. Even EBC uses algorithms of throttle openings executed on trailing throttle to modify the characteristic of engine braking.

A separate system with dedicated ECU is capable of auto-throttle blipping to specifically rev-match, but does not come on any OEM bike:

Awesome Yamaha R1 & R6 CABS Automatic Throttle Blipper - YouTube



See above. You have repeatedly proved yourself a riding technique troll. I'll let you in on something. The truly fast guys don't critique unless they're asked. I've read your riding critiques on other threads here and frankly you don't come off as someone that actually has the experience of what you attempt to malign others for not doing. You probably have attended a few schools, made some huge strides in your personal ability, maybe even been bumped up to the next group at your track days recently. Your arrogance betrays your neophytism as does your erroneous discourse on the topic. So I'm adding you to my ignore list.

I'm heart broken.

I didn't malign anyone. If the OP had the proper lines he most likely wouldn't have hit the curb. You know, go slow to go fast. All I've ever done is correct falacies. Comparing the OPs downshifting to what the guy is doing in the video is like comparing my riding to Rossi's riding, totally different ballparks.

And I never said I was truly fast. I mean what exactly is that anyway? I will tell you one thing, don't put a video of yourself up if you can't handle a critique. I know I don't get offended when others critique my riding at the track. It's how people get faster and ride better. Too much epeen on this site for my taste but I'm here anyways since its the only real place to go for the 1199.
 
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Gentlemen,

i know Gatti and I had a bit of a rumble on the Pro pipe topic and that soon there were sides having a go at each other. And that burrrying the hatchet seemed hard. Whether that was spill over from other threads or not, i don't know. Looking back it seems that a lot of it has to do with form over matter..
If there was anything to get over in the first place, i did get over it and so perhaps , if i can, most of us should be able to, no? :)
so why don't we all make up and be friends again, no? :)
Ok, my thoughts on the downshifting and the remarks
It all comes down to the braking. And the weight the brakes have to stop. And how to do both... without wanting to point all the time to how special this bike is, it cannot be ignored that a full WSBK brake setup ( GP 19x18 master, 108 monoblocs, Z4 pads and 6MM sbk disks) is something that takes getting used to. And , let's be honest, will never ever be used by to the full of its capability by me
At Zolder ( much more a stop and go track) i did get to using them harder and my back and arms were stiff for 3 days. Once they bite, there really is no letting go. lap after lap after lap.. the bike only weighing 178 kgs in race trim ( half tank ) makes that setup even more brutal. and the 95/97 kgs sitting on top undergoing some decent G's in the process, harder to get stopped in sync.
My problem is that i ride not hard enough to use them to the tilt and if i would i'm not sure i'd be able to handle them. Again, size and weight come into play when stopping the whole lot.
So to downshifting. Frankly i fully admit to the fact that i roll off way to early. Mainly because finding the very last yard to brake is not my priority - if it ever will be. And , in many occasions, because i m not alone in the braking area and have to be mindful of other riders. As i'm not a fixed regular of fast group in the morning yet, many of these riders are still finding their way around on their bike and track. This also impairs lines btw..
If the friends i ride with ( 2:41 - 2:47 = race pace leaque ) do like something on my 'riding style' it is that it is smooth and fluent. to me, not upsetting the bike is part of that. And why i'm not so taken by the new setup as - perhaps all and only in my mind - she got more wiggly up front.
Just look at Neil Hodgson go round on the Donington vid and it seems he's on rails on one long sweeping line with hardly any hick ups... masterfull..
But I invite anyone to hit a 2:52 the first ever day out at Spa and this bike. And hit 2:54 the first session of this day. You don't get those with horrendous lines. What is true though is that by getting faster, one uses more of the track, as the speed just carries you wider and deeper into the corners.
To me : one of the horrendous dangers of riding with novice group is that they will actually steer to get on the good lines event though their speed asks for a different one. As lines change with speed, there is absolutely no need for them to be on 200kph lines when they're doing 100. So, heading for corners, mind that there will be no room left to go by the time you get there.
ok , back to the subject
What has this to do with downshifting? It is clear that tech has evolved tremendously the last 5 years with the age of electronics. Slipper clutches add a lot, abs adds a lot, brake systems shorten time while on the brakes. So combine the slipper clutch, EBC and ABS 2 ( ABS 2 spreads brake power over front and rear to align wheels) and i think we must all think no longer off not flip throttling between shifts not being bad/wrong downshifting technique but only the new way to downshift.
Just as the QS is the new way to upshift. Full throttle, tick and done. Cut the throttle here and it won't upshift, something i still have to get used to. But you can still use the clutch anytime you shift. So riding techniques change to.
We're quit intense about all this and we do talk ridetech most of the day when not riding. Again, i m lucky to do so with people who know. Like the record holder for Spa at 2:26!! (who did a 2:29 on a nightsession - ! ) This is where i get to hear stuff like that very fast riders going through Radillon and Blanchimont 2 ( second kink) just jam the gears back 1 gear to go up Radillon or through Blanchimont full whack. just kick that gearbox… no mention of flipthrottling here either... as it would just unsettle the bike and at those speeds they just know they would go off as it just extends the period when the bike is without traction and the suspension uncompressed and so unstable. Wanna know how it feels : Just try going through a corner between gears…
Does this make my shifting procedure perfect? far from. This is where i still have a long way to go. Keeping on full throttle as long as possible and then whacking the brakes full tilt.. It's something i eventuelly will do, but it is not a first priority.
Frankly, i did make a point of it in Zolder a couple of times and to be honest, it is so brutal there is simply no time enough to do all the flipping. As it will complicate things badly and give opportunity to do more damage to your braking procedure than is good for you. Quit simply, it is just: brake, tick tick tick, turn in, let go... it seems that is what the bike is made to do..
I sure as hell would not like to live the moment when coming from a 260+ kph going deep on the brakes, i would upset the braking by messing up the flipshifting as i can't do it quick enough. the consequences of upsetting the frame and suspension like this could be bad bad bad, very bad.
Im sure getting on a good 916 or 888 would get me back to flipthrottling in a second though…
 

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