MCN : 899 best sportsbike out there !

And think about that Superbike scenario where the superbike has some seriously trick traction control and the 600 has basic, of the shelf stuff... A big difference...

I happened across this recently posted video of the 899 running through a nice canyon road. Based on this video, the performance appears to be very similar to the 1199's WET mode. The 899 looks to be a terrific bike, but it seems clear to me Ducati intended for this bike to be a more affordable alternative for those who do not wish to pay a premium for the lighter, more powerful package. There really shouldn't be any confusion as to which bike will be the better performer, be that on the track or in the canyons.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nXlNAyPv9a0

Red Dawn said:

Why do you think with the example that you even used where you were beating up on big bikes with the 848 was happening? You can brake sometimes a bit later due to the top speed differences, but the corner speed is higher on the smaller and less powerful bike.

The smaller the power, the easier to get the speed up faster.

Lighter bike can get in faster and deeper and carry higher mid turn speed...

When you see at the races where a 600 is running 2 seconds a lap slower than a superbike, that is due to straights and exit drive to a degree. But what keeps that smaller bike so close is the ability to carry higher corner speed and work faster in the segments that are more technical.

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I don't believe these statements are entirely accurate. Smaller engines have the potential to spin up quicker (assuming both engines are fitted with similar internals), but the larger displacement engine has the potential to produce equal or greater power at a lower rpm. Riders on smaller engine bikes typically carry more corner speed than riders on larger engine bikes, but this doesn't imply the smaller bike is necessarily quicker through a turn (time vs. speed), rather, it simply illustrates one of the ways riders leverage the characteristics of a particular bike to attain the fastest lap time possible. This means widening the radius and carrying more momentum through turns on smaller bikes, and tightening the radius for a more point and shoot approach on larger displacement bikes. The larger displacement bike can carry just as much corner speed as the lower, but doing so would curtail the inherent power advantage of the larger displacement bike, resulting in an overall slower lap time than what could be achieved.

Lighter bike with all other things being equal should equate to the potential for higher corner speeds. And as Duck41 stated, just because they can doesn't mean they have to or choose to. It matters little if you are using 100% throttle on a ninja 300 or 20% throttle on an 1199. Power output at given RPM is what matters. Especially on such a fast revving over square Panigale motor.

I would like to know how a smaller motor would equal faster cornerspeed

And for terminology I think of cornerspeed as lowest speed of the corner. The bigger bike might point and shoot causing a lower speed at the slowest point but wouldn't have to do it that way.

The larger bike factually has a larger contact patch giving it more traction through the corner, thus equating to faster corner speed.

The lighter weight also states it will weasel through the technical stuff quicker as well.


For the street the extra torque will increase corner speeds as well. Ah hell on the track as well.


You wont have to beat the hell out the smaller bike winding it to the moon to do what the larger bike does much easier.


Ive been following my buddy up his little favorite canyon for 3 years, it is very very tight and technical. 1rst and half way through second.

On the 848 I could stay in sight, on the 1199 my first run I was right on his rear tire.

Not the best example, but one should not discount the 1199 in the tight stuff.

turnone said:

I would like to know how a smaller motor would equal faster corner speed

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Its like saying we should dial down our motors with the onboard controls and we can really haul ...!

You guys got it all figured out. Bigger contact patch and everything. Have fun at the track days and canyon riding... I will keep it in mind when the next fast guy on a 600 sets the lap record on his smaller bike and smaller tire contact patch...

Keep lugging the big twin 1199 motors and let me know how that goes after you launch yourself to the moon... The 1199 is not a 1098 and is a revvier motor like an in-line and several guys have noted it is more like riding an in-line than ever before. Luggin at 5k isn't getting you anywhere. You ride hard and keep the bike in the revs where it makes the power and you aren't at 5k...

I can promise you one thing - you cannot carry the corner speed the same as a smaller bike. But, keep telling yourselves that bigger tires and more torque and lower RPMs is the answer...

Turnone, we can meet up at Mid-Ohio and I will borrow a buddy's R6 and you can ride your 1199. We can see who passes on the outside of the keyhole and runs a higher corner speed... The point is that the power delivery, the power output and the characteristics of that power output weigh in on the delivery and what you can do. Or at Putnam in 9 and 10...

Again... Guys... Look at Cameron on the R6 and Hayes on the R1 SUPERBIKE and tell me why Cameron can pull off 2 seconds within that SB time? Tell me why he can run lap records with 5 laps to go after a long race and why the SB guys run slower at the end. Tires wear quicker on the big bikes and while yes, they will have a larger contact patch (VERY minimal amounts more), they need it with the power delivery that can be applied to that rear tire. The point is simple. You guys think that more is better. Yes, it can be and yes, it will run a faster time through a course at any given moment. But, the corner is where the smaller bike will gain back SOME of what is lost on the power side.

Dunno. I'm done arguing... I am more baffled at Turnone as he should understand this more as he has been around us a good bit and has to have seen the differences.

I think you guys understand, but to even watch a video and say it looks to be the same as the 1199 in wet mode is SILLY!! The 899 is going to be a heart breaker at the track. You get the gearing right and guys with even 1199s are gonna be having a tough time fending off these bikes. Not saying that it won't be beaten by an 1199. I am saying that it isn't going to be easy. And I think the right guy on one can be beating and winning against 1199 at the club level.

But, it's a healthy debate and one that has gone on for sooooooo many years. Bigger isn't always better. And we are talking 12 lbs difference. Essentially 1-1/2 hp when it is all said and done. It's more about cornering and entry through to exit. Try and follow an RS125 into a turn where you are heavy braking. Let me know if you can take that big ol 1199 into the turn as deep as he can and then carry that corner speed he can. Yes, you will be faster out of the turn and make that ground back up quickly as soon as you straighten up, but that little bike with small HP is going to crush you entry to mid turn...

outhouse said:

The larger bike factually has a larger contact patch giving it more traction through the corner, thus equating to faster corner speed.

The lighter weight also states it will weasel through the technical stuff quicker as well.


For the street the extra torque will increase corner speeds as well. Ah hell on the track as well.


You wont have to beat the hell out the smaller bike winding it to the moon to do what the larger bike does much easier.


Ive been following my buddy up his little favorite canyon for 3 years, it is very very tight and technical. 1rst and half way through second.

On the 848 I could stay in sight, on the 1199 my first run I was right on his rear tire.

Not the best example, but one should not discount the 1199 in the tight stuff.

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Is your buddy pushing as hard as you are in that scenario? Did he make an error or was he at the same rider ability as you? It cannot be judged by two people in an uncontrolled environment. It's like when two guys try and do roll ons to see who's bike is faster. It kills me. A split second slower reaction can be over a bike length difference at the end... Is that bike faster or did the other guy react quicker or slower?

You need to take both bikes with you or someone else and have them ride each bike like in a test scenario and see what they can do. Meaning, look at the results of a rider who can dial to their preferences each bike and have them run the track and document the times. You take an average joe guy and I am willing to bet that he'd go faster on the 899 than the 1199 with only half a day on each. I think that you guys are not really understanding the 1199 is a bike that is on the rear wheel a lot and under drive out of corners, it can be a handful.

Turnone can relate to talking Putnam. Coming out of 2-3 turns there, the 1199 climbs on the exit out. This means that it takes time to drag the rear brake while it wheelies out of the turn. It is squirming under load as it is grabbing at traction while the front wheel is up off the ground. Then, once it comes down, it is instantly under load for braking into a turn with a load of trail due to corner entry speed. The 848 for example and following a guy on one, I would make my ground on the straight there but would fall behind slightly out of the bus stop and dead bear. Also between 9 and 10 due to the setting up for that corner due to the exit speed and power out of Dead Bear.

We have fiddled with chassis geo and spring rates and got the bike a lot more civil and towards the end of the year, I think it was much better. But, the bike is fast and can do a lot, but an average rider on the 1199 is going to struggle with that power on exit and speed into turns it produces. Where with a smaller bike, they can work much more easily and actually start to drive better as they can sooner and then be more composed on entry as the bike will not be out of shape. Leading to a better setup into the turn and capability to start accelerating sooner than they would on an 1199...

Again, there are going to be guys that are flat out amazing and understand just how to dial it differently on one bike to another. They will go faster on the 1199 and that will show the power difference. But an average rider is going to have more of their hands full with the more powerful bike than the smaller powered bike...

The premise by which I stand is that the 899 will make a better bike for the average rider out there. Maybe we are all above average or something which is quite possible. But I would say that back when the 750s were the ultimate bikes to have, we will have a similar deal here. I think this is the 750 for the 2014 crowd and it is going to be a great choice. 1199s are a lot of work. And if you don't think so, I am thinking you might not be using it enough to it's potential...

I like the discussion.

I said "Lighter bike with all other things being equal should equate to the potential for higher corner speeds."

So bringing up how bad ... an RS125 goes around corners isn't what I thought we were discussing. Since my statement said that other things have to be equal, having more motor won't hurt corner speed, but it sure makes it harder to ride. This would be a limit of the rider not the bike.

Compare the 899 to the 1199 on the items that I understand to potentially affect corner speed.
899 / 1199
Wheelbase: 1426 mm / 1437 mm Winner 899
Wet weight: 193 KG /190.5 KG Winner 1199 (Edited as I had backwards)
Rake: 24 deg / 24.5 deg Winner 899 for faster turn in.
Trail: 96mm / 100mm (Probably a tie)
Tires: Same brand/spec on each, 1199's rear tire is wider, maybe helps a little with maximum grip.

I'm a huge fan of the little bikes and enjoy the benefits of them when ridden hard. However, comparing the 899 to the 1199 I think the corner speed will be the approximately the same for a similar rider, unless the rider feels more confident on the lower power bike.

I in no way dispute smaller bikes will corner at higher speeds, but that's not the clear cut case here IMO.

turnone said:

I like the discussion.

I said "Lighter bike with all other things being equal should equate to the potential for higher corner speeds."

So bringing up how bad ... an RS125 goes around corners isn't what I thought we were discussing. Since my statement said that other things have to be equal, having more motor won't hurt corner speed, but it sure makes it harder to ride. This would be a limit of the rider not the bike.

Compare the 899 to the 1199 on the items that I understand to potentially affect corner speed.
899 / 1199
Wheelbase: 1426 mm / 1437 mm Winner 899
Wet weight: 190.5 KG /193 KG Winner 1199
Rake: 24 deg / 24.5 deg Winner 899 for faster turn in.
Trail: 96mm / 100mm (Probably a tie)
Tires: Same brand/spec on each, 1199's rear tire is wider, maybe helps a little with maximum grip.

I'm a huge fan of the little bikes and enjoy the benefits of them when ridden hard. However, comparing the 899 to the 1199 I think the corner speed will be the approximately the same for a similar rider, unless the rider feels more confident on the lower power bike.

I in no way dispute smaller bikes will corner at higher speeds, but that's not the clear cut case here IMO.

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Precisely. The RS125's kerb weight is approximately 280 lbs. compared to the 1199's 414 lbs., so interjecting discussion of its cornering abilities to support a position contending smaller displacement bikes universally maintain higher corner speeds than larger displacement bikes as a direct result of displacement and not any other variable (e.g., weight) is glaringly skewed logic. The 1199 has a larger contact patch than the 899 while being both lighter and more powerful; there is nothing inherent to the 899 to suggest it has the ability to corner at speeds that the 1199 is not capable of matching or possibly exceeding.

outhouse said:

How many of us ride around in "wet mode" cutting canyons because the 1199 has way too much power?


Im wanting to kick sport mode up to 195 hi

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The first thing I did when I got my Tricolore was to kick Sports Mode uo to 195 Hi.

Claymore said:

The first thing I did when I got my Tricolore was to kick Sports Mode uo to 195 Hi.

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That's my next move.


I don't find 195 low to be what I expected

outhouse said:

That's my next move.


I don't find 195 low to be what I expected

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I've found 195 low to be a great setting for long highway stretches where you want the majority of the power but not necessarily with a razor sharp throttle response as it can get tiresome having every minute movement detected. When doing any spirited riding, however, 195 Hi is fantastic.