MotoGP 2023

Ducati Forum

Help Support Ducati Forum:

Macattack said:
motogp announcers:
MM crashes - world champion crashes while valiantly competing for third place
Bagnia crashes - what a ...... idiot
Click to expand...

On a serious note, Marc is the underdog on the worst bike on the grid, and Bagnaia is in a position of advantage on the most dominant bike on the grid. Doesn’t necessarily justify the reporting bias, but commentators are as prone to human nature as the rest of us.
 
craig bush said:
On a serious note, Marc is the underdog on the worst bike on the grid, and Bagnaia is in a position of advantage on the most dominant bike on the grid. Doesn’t necessarily justify the reporting bias, but commentators are as prone to human nature as the rest of us.
Click to expand...

I think the honda is really close to being the second best bike on the grid. I'm sure you do not agree. we will see next year when the great reset happens. I think marq has to get his problems sorted out more then the bike he ride. I also think if Fabio Q gets a different bike to ride he will be consistently fightiing for a podium . I could be wrong too LOL
 
Macattack said:
I think the honda is really close to being the second best bike on the grid.
Click to expand...

How then do you account for all four Honda riders performing so poorly nearly all season, and two of four riders missing significant portions of the season due to injuries sustained from crashes?

Macattack said:
I also think if Fabio Q gets a different bike to ride he will be consistently fightiing for a podium .
Click to expand...

I’m inclined to agree.

Consider:

Marc, Mir, and Q - world champions 2019, 20, and 21 respectively. All performing poorly this year until India. Why - what was different about India?

It’s a track they’ve never ridden before.

So. the teams didn’t have data from previous years to reference for setup. Being relatively data-limited shifts the performance bias from machine to rider (i.e. bike superiority becomes less important and rider skill becomes more important). Who benefits? The relatively strong riders on relatively weak bikes (“relatively” because all the riders and bikes are very good from an absolute perspective).
 
craig bush said:
How then do you account for all four Honda riders performing so poorly nearly all season, and two of four riders missing significant portions of the season due to injuries sustained from crashes?



I’m inclined to agree.

Consider:

Marc, Mir, and Q - world champions 2019, 20, and 21 respectively. All performing poorly this year until India. Why - what was different about India?

It’s a track they’ve never ridden before.

So. the teams didn’t have data from previous years to reference for setup. Being relatively data-limited shifts the performance bias from machine to rider (i.e. bike superiority becomes less important and rider skill becomes more important). Who benefits? The relatively strong riders on relatively weak bikes (“relatively” because all the riders and bikes are very good from an absolute perspective).
Click to expand...

IMO the hardest bike ever put on a gp track was mic doohans BBnsr 500 the second was casey stoners gp7 . good riders get over the problems they face, and crashes happen . MM's crash per weekend percentage has not changed from when he was winning In fact I'd bet it's gone way down. I'll remind you that position one and two were ducati's in India and the reason it wasnt 1,2,3,?,?, was because the ducatis crashed out. so to reiterate your point- either the crashing is the bikes fault and now ducati has a crashing problem, or binning bikes happens and honda is in need of a casey stoner. I feel like you're saying honda crash = bike is bad...ducati crash = riders fault. I don't see it that way. I see your point though. I feel like honda is moving the needle but the talent isn't helping. How would you even know if honda was catching up with development when MM is so bad at riding over the abilities of the bike? feedback development is and always has been his Achilles heel
 
Last edited:
Macattack said:
I think the honda is really close to being the second best bike on the grid
Click to expand...

Currently there are 5 manufacturer's and Honda is dead donkey last on 123 points vs Ducati on 453. Second place is KTM with 253, so "really close to second" means making a 100% improvement in the results. MM is riding a donkey, Bagnaia is riding a thoroughbred and there is only so much a rider can do with that kind of difference In performance. Bez showed us very clearly what talent can do, Bagnaia could have brought the fight to him but he had bike issues that prevented him from his usual late braking and head issues that seem to appear once he gets clear air after a few laps behind someone. MM and Fabio plus Bez and maybe Basta are real talents among the most skilled riders on the planet, but it takes more than a fast lap to win a WC.

If MM goes to Gresini as the rumor mill suggests, it will be great for the sport on every level.
 
Macattack said:
IMO the hardest bike ever put on a gp track was mic doohans BBnsr 500 the second was casey stoners gp7 . good riders get over the problems they face, and crashes happen . MM's crash per weekend percentage has not changed from when he was winning In fact I'd bet it's gone way down. I'll remind you that position one and two were ducati's in India and the reason it wasnt 1,2,3,?,?, was because the ducatis crashed out. so to reiterate your point- either the crashing is the bikes fault and now ducati has a crashing problem, or binning bikes happens and honda is in need of a casey stoner. I feel like you're saying honda crash = bike is bad...ducati crash = riders fault. I don't see it that way. I see your point though. I feel like honda is moving the needle but the talent isn't helping. How would you even know if honda was catching up with development when MM is so bad at riding over the abilities of the bike? feedback development is and always has been his Achilles heel
Click to expand...

Good thoughts here. Far to much to type on my phone. I’ll respond in detail from a computer.
 
Paul G said:
Currently there are 5 manufacturer's and Honda is dead donkey last on 123 points vs Ducati on 453. Second place is KTM with 253, so "really close to second" means making a 100% improvement in the results. MM is riding a donkey, Bagnaia is riding a thoroughbred and there is only so much a rider can do with that kind of difference In performance. Bez showed us very clearly what talent can do, Bagnaia could have brought the fight to him but he had bike issues that prevented him from his usual late braking and head issues that seem to appear once he gets clear air after a few laps behind someone. MM and Fabio plus Bez and maybe Basta are real talents among the most skilled riders on the planet, but it takes more than a fast lap to win a WC.

If MM goes to Gresini as the rumor mill suggests, it will be great for the sport on every level.
Click to expand...

This ^^^

Also this (from Cal Crutchlow)

“I think Marc is still the best rider and the greatest talent I've had the privilege to race with.

I was riding a Honda at the same time. I knew what he was doing and I understood it. But I couldn't put it into practice.

“His talent was incredible and I don't think he lost that talent. I just think his bike is not letting him do what he was used to doing at the moment.”


Link:

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1...marquez-ducati-everyone-else-wouldn-t-compete
 
Paul G said:
Currently there are 5 manufacturer's and Honda is dead donkey last on 123 points vs Ducati on 453. Second place is KTM with 253, so "really close to second" means making a 100% improvement in the results. MM is riding a donkey, Bagnaia is riding a thoroughbred and there is only so much a rider can do with that kind of difference In performance. Bez showed us very clearly what talent can do, Bagnaia could have brought the fight to him but he had bike issues that prevented him from his usual late braking and head issues that seem to appear once he gets clear air after a few laps behind someone. MM and Fabio plus Bez and maybe Basta are real talents among the most skilled riders on the planet, but it takes more than a fast lap to win a WC.

If MM goes to Gresini as the rumor mill suggests, it will be great for the sport on every level.
Click to expand...

race Lap times tell a different story. there is a correlation and you have a valid point, but ktm and honda have narrowed the gap on laptimes and ape has not so much. IMO points are affected by things like crashes and human error and lap times are the real indicators. Honda is improving fast its too bad for them that Rins is still injured, he'd probably do well at this track. Honda should have a advantage at Motegi .If mm can make it to the end without binning the honda he will do well IMO
 
Paul G said:
Currently there are 5 manufacturer's and Honda is dead donkey last on 123 points vs Ducati on 453. Second place is KTM with 253, so "really close to second" means making a 100% improvement in the results. MM is riding a donkey, Bagnaia is riding a thoroughbred and there is only so much a rider can do with that kind of difference In performance. Bez showed us very clearly what talent can do, Bagnaia could have brought the fight to him but he had bike issues that prevented him from his usual late braking and head issues that seem to appear once he gets clear air after a few laps behind someone. MM and Fabio plus Bez and maybe Basta are real talents among the most skilled riders on the planet, but it takes more than a fast lap to win a WC.

If MM goes to Gresini as the rumor mill suggests, it will be great for the sport on every level.
Click to expand...

If Bez wins the championship, he has the talent to do so, the bike would have been GP champ for two seasons. I wonder how many times Bagnaia has thot that.
 
baggerman said:
One race does not a season make. That being said the CF would seem to possess all kinds of advantages with respect to fine tuning torsional effects.
Click to expand...

Not so fast. Ducati had massive problems with CF chassis and swingarms back in the days. Something about CF dampening the feeling too much. There’s a reason why Aluminum monocoque frames are still de rigeur still in the paddock.

A good read on CF’s use in GP Carbon-fibre MotoGP: it’s a long story
 
I have no skin in this game but there is REDBULL money behind that team. Just look at what they have accomplished in F1 over the years. I can't remember exactly but I think Vettel got 4 WC titles and Max has 2 going on 3 probably the next race. No doubt Redbull has and had the 2 best drivers at that time. Where KTM/REDBULL does not have the best rider unlike there F1 team has had.
 
SuperDomestique said:
Probably, but how do you explain 90% of the paddock still on aluminum chassis?
Click to expand...
That’s not to say they are developing them. KTM was just the first to start publicly testing one. I think if I were Ducati I wouldn’t rush it to the paddock given that arguably have the best bike.
 
No doubt Redbull has and had the 2 best drivers at that time.
Click to expand...
Praise Newey, the dude sees rulebooks differently, amazing what he exploits and how he creates performance.

Personally I think that is the major factor in the rise of the Euro manufacturers, exploit the rulebooks to the max in areas, that the Japanese scoffed at, that are now paying huge dividends (hole shot, ride height, shapeshifter, mass damper - salad box, let alone aero). It will take years of development and more than 2-4 bikes on the grid for them to catch up.

The next set of rule changes will be a contentious topic for sure.
 
Kev242 said:
Praise Newey, the dude sees rulebooks differently, amazing what he exploits and how he creates performance.
Click to expand...

This ^^^

The machine /operator performance ratio is larger in F1 is even larger than in MotoGP. Red Bull owes most of its success to Adrian Newey.

The assertion that Sebastian Vettel was “the best” driver on the grid while winning 4 championships with Red Bull (2010-2013) is not substantive.

Yes, he was nearly unbeatable while driving the best car on the grid. Where was he after leaving Red Bull for Ferrari when Mercedes was winning championships from 2014-2020? Nowhere. He’s arguably nowhere near as good as Hamilton who’s won 7 championships and (iirc) is the only driver in the modern era to win championships with two manufacturers.
 

Similar threads

duc
EICMA 2023: Unveiling the Future of Ducati Motorcycles
Replies
2
Views
1K
panibadboy
panibadboy
BP PanigaleV4S
California Superbike School - NCM Motorsports Park
Replies
15
Views
654
spooky
S
H
SLR Tuning (my terrible experience)
2
Replies
34
Views
4K
Hok
H
duc
Ducati Double Podium at MotoGP - Buriram, Thailand
Replies
8
Views
901
Kev242
Kev242
V
Severe issues with 2023 Panigale V4R. Need help.
5 6 7
Replies
130
Views
8K
Lefty
Lefty

Register CTA

Register on Ducati Forum! This sidebar will go away, and you will see fewer ads.

Recent Discussions

Back
Top