MotoGP 2023

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Alkhater said:
I’ve never been a MM fan and have mostly had a quasi bias against him for being Dorna’s or the FIM’s sponsored poster boy. I don’t think I’ve ever celebrated a MotoGP victory as much as the Rins final corner overtake at Silverstone… that was extremely satisfying.

That being said… the obvious talent shouldn’t be dismissed.

I think he’ll take that Ducati to 1st place in 2024.
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Yep - I feel essentially the same. I never really cared for him before, but he has shown real heart and character since the accident - I have a new respect for him.
 
I was having this argument with people on this forum in 2019 when MM was still winning almost every race that one day the young guns would catch up and he would no longer be dominant. Time waits for no man and crashing hundreds of times , two fused shoulders, diplopia, ribs arm leg fractures... If he were a horse they'd shoot him. Just remember the rules = when MM wins it's pure talent. When MM loses it's obviously the pos bike he is riding. when he crashes into people , rides the wrong way on a track during a race, or bins the bike it's because his passion for the sport of racing motorcycles. 2024 will be interesting. entertaining. and amazing as always. I'm planning on watching what's going on at the front of the race though.
 
craig bush said:
Yep - I feel essentially the same. I never really cared for him before, but he has shown real heart and character since the accident - I have a new respect for him.
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Heart and character?? Marc!?!?

Determination is a great quality which he has more than most guys, but should not be confused with either heart or character.

Next year will be interesting. I don't see it going quite as smooth as Mr. Crutchlow believes.
 
Ryfly05 said:
Heart and character?? Marc!?!?

Determination is a great quality which he has more than most guys, but should not be confused with either heart or character.
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This post is an example of how emotional investment negatively impacts objectivity and contributes to bias.

What do we mean when we say a person “has heart”? We mean they give maximal effort and refuse to quit in the face of adversity - i.e. they are determined.

So, not only is determination a character trait, it is essentially synonymous with “having heart”. You acknowledge Marc is determined, but simultaneously deny that he has heart, which as we just established is a phrase meaning a person has determination.

We all have a tendency to convince ourselves that something we like is good and something we don’t is bad. Being proactively aware of it makes us less prone to this potential bias. :)
 
Having heart goes much deeper than just having determination. They are not one and the same.

What else would you like to teach me about myself? 🙄
 
Ryfly05 said:
Having heart goes much deeper than just having determination. They are not one and the same.
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If you re-read my comment, you’ll notice I didn’t assert they are “one in the same”, but rather they are “essentially synonymous”.

How are they different?


Ryfly05 said:
What else would you like to teach me about myself? 🙄
Click to expand...

It’s very difficult to share insight with a person who’s closed-minded.
 
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Paul G said:
Marc is an alien, so is Pedrosa. DP double 4ths shows you how "average" this field is.

With MM on a competitive bike and its going to be a lot of great racing
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Or it shows how good Pedrosa is. On a bike he knows inside out of course.

Martin to take it this year?

I’m already looking forward to 2024…
 
Just so I understand causation argument we are being talked down from authority with
this is what I'm being told - right ?
If pedrosa finishes ahead of marq it's talent by pedrosa and MM below Dani it's the bike. but when mm gets a podium It's not the honda improving its pure talent. also the entire field is lacking talent except MM proving the honda is complete garbage. this is starting to get as confusing as gender theory .
All silly talk aside , I do think MM should have stayed with Honda . They are going to get the rc up to speed soon.
 
Macattack said:
Just so I understand causation argument we are being talked down from authority with
this is what I'm being told - right ?
If pedrosa finishes ahead of marq it's talent by pedrosa and MM below Dani it's the bike. but when mm gets a podium It's not the honda improving its pure talent. also the entire field is lacking talent except MM proving the honda is complete garbage. this is starting to get as confusing as gender theory .
All silly talk aside , I do think MM should have stayed with Honda . They are going to get the rc up to speed soon.
Click to expand...

Maybe they will. You'd think they have to eventually. But there are quality riders crashing the Honda and not getting better results than MM (if not always for the entire race). I'd say that nobody is riding that bike better than him and with all of his talent he still struggles and gets occasional results that remind everyone how good he is, but is is having to ride the bike way beyond it's limits to do so. If the bike is improving then someone should tell Mir.

KTM have been doing very well and far better than anyone expected. It's not like they were in the bottom half of the field and Pedrosa simply reminded everyone how talented he still is. I suspect MM on the KTM would do better than MM on the Honda. It will be interesting to see how he does on the Ducati. His brother was certainly looking far better on the Ducati than he did on the Honda, and I'd say MM is a better rider than his brother.

It would be funny if the Honda suddenly improves and MM starts winning races before he leaves.

Lot's to look forward to in 2024, and this season is still far from over.
 
Macattack said:
Just so I understand causation argument we are being talked down from authority with
this is what I'm being told - right ?
If pedrosa finishes ahead of marq it's talent by pedrosa and MM below Dani it's the bike. but when mm gets a podium It's not the honda improving its pure talent. also the entire field is lacking talent except MM proving the honda is complete garbage. this is starting to get as confusing as gender theory .
All silly talk aside , I do think MM should have stayed with Honda . They are going to get the rc up to speed soon.
Click to expand...

As annoying as Rossi fans can be, the anti-Marquez crowd are trying hard to surpass them.

I don’t hear anyone arguing inconsistently. Marc has established himself as the best rider of the last decade. Recently, he isn’t competitive. It’s either predominantly him, or predominantly the bike. An indicator of which is the fact that no one on a Honda is consistently competitive.

Another indicator, is that Marc is consistently the highest finishing Honda rider.

Additionally, three of the four Honda riders (including two prior world champions) have been injured in crashes, and one of those prior champs (Mir) won the championship specifically by being the most consistent finisher in the field and rarely crashing.

So, either all 3 riders (two world champions and one multiple race winner) simultaneously lost their talent, or the bike they’re riding has issues.

Seems pretty straightforward to me - no mental gymnastics necessary (unlike modern gender theory).

Lastly, another former competitor (Lorenzo) is now on record identifying Marc as the best rider on the grid:

“For me, he is still the best, Marc Marquez, physically and mentally, I would not rule him out.”

He and Crutchlow must be in on the conspiracy too. :)


Article link:

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1...s-brutal-prediction-about-marc-marquez-ducati
 
craig bush said:
As annoying as Rossi fans can be, the anti-Marquez crowd are trying hard to surpass them.

I don’t hear anyone arguing inconsistently. Marc has established himself as the best rider of the last decade. Recently, he isn’t competitive. It’s either predominantly him, or predominantly the bike. An indicator of which is the fact that no one on a Honda is consistently competitive.

Another indicator, is that Marc is consistently the highest finishing Honda rider.

Additionally, three of the four Honda riders (including two prior world champions) have been injured in crashes, and one of those prior champs (Mir) won the championship specifically by being the most consistent finisher in the field and rarely crashing.

So, either all 3 riders (two world champions and one multiple race winner) simultaneously lost their talent, or the bike they’re riding has issues.

Seems pretty straightforward to me - no mental gymnastics necessary (unlike modern gender theory).

Lastly, another former competitor (Lorenzo) is now on record identifying Marc as the best rider on the grid:

“For me, he is still the best, Marc Marquez, physically and mentally, I would not rule him out.”

He and Crutchlow must be in on the conspiracy too. :)


Article link:

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1...s-brutal-prediction-about-marc-marquez-ducati
Click to expand...

I'm the only one saying this stuff and it's not anti Marquez If it's ok to claim the entire field has low talent is fine and that is not annoying , but pointing out thinking Marq marquez Might not be as fast as he used to or competition is coming up to his level is really annoying . like a rossi nut swinger. maybe youre a Marq Marquez fan like those rossi fans are LOL
 
I think MM made the right move. He’s an older rider and likely doesn’t have very many competitive years yet, and it’s obvious he set out to have the most titles.

The simple fact remains that Pecco, Bez and Martin…maybe Binder…will also have a say in who wins next years championship.
 
Macattack said:
Just so I understand causation argument we are being talked down from authority with
this is what I'm being told - right ?
If pedrosa finishes ahead of marq it's talent by pedrosa and MM below Dani it's the bike. but when mm gets a podium It's not the honda improving its pure talent. also the entire field is lacking talent except MM proving the honda is complete garbage. this is starting to get as confusing as gender theory .
All silly talk aside , I do think MM should have stayed with Honda . They are going to get the rc up to speed soon.
Click to expand...

Your arguments silly, Pedrosa finishes in front of Marc because talent 9 plus bike 9, Marc finishes behind Pedrosa because talent 10 plus bike 7.... make sense? Pedrosa is showing how good he is given that who he is racing against are battle hardened full time racers, while he races once or twice a year? The field are not poor quality, its just that he is an Alien.
 
Paul G said:
Marc is an alien, so is Pedrosa. DP double 4ths shows you how "average" this field is.

With MM on a competitive bike and its going to be a lot of great racing
Click to expand...

Paul G said:
Your arguments silly, Pedrosa finishes in front of Marc because talent 9 plus bike 9, Marc finishes behind Pedrosa because talent 10 plus bike 7.... make sense? Pedrosa is showing how good he is given that who he is racing against are battle hardened full time racers, while he races once or twice a year? The field are not poor quality, its just that he is an Alien.
Click to expand...
You called the entire field average Including the people who are dominating the track and the ones who are former champions like Fabio Q. I don't agree with this. IMO If mm was as good as you think he is He would have rode over the bikes problems like casey stoner did on the Ducati (07,08)when no one else could ride it . literally every racer who rode that bike (gp7) said it was unridable and he won a championship with it. Nobody in motogp is average an no man is immortal . MM wasnt robbed of his 19 championship he crashed . talent is also measured in the ability to hold your line and finish the race. the alien thing is subjective at best , but if MM was an alien would he crash an average of 3 times per race weekend, and shouldn't his celestial powers propel him past any motorcycle flaws?
 
Macattack said:
You called the entire field average Including the people who are dominating the track and the ones who are former champions like Fabio Q. I don't agree with this. IMO If mm was as good as you think he is He would have rode over the bikes problems like casey stoner did on the Ducati (07,08)when no one else could ride it . literally every racer who rode that bike (gp7) said it was unridable and he won a championship with it. Nobody in motogp is average an no man is immortal . MM wasnt robbed of his 19 championship he crashed . talent is also measured in the ability to hold your line and finish the race. the alien thing is subjective at best , but if MM was an alien would he crash an average of 3 times per race weekend, and shouldn't his celestial powers propel him past any motorcycle flaws?
Click to expand...

You seem to be arguing from a position of emotion and personal investment, and it seems to cloud your objectivity. This is evidenced by the fact that Marquez wasn’t robbed of the 2019 championship - he won it. I think you meant to reference the 2020 championship, which, you’re correct - he wasn’t robbed, he crashed.

And before that crash, he rode from 16th to 3rd in like 8 laps. No one, not even Stoner, has so dominated the field similarly, in the modern era. Can you identify a rider who could do the same today?

You assert that if Marc was as talented as others claim, he would have ridden over the bikes issues. Who says he wasn’t? He won 6 championships from 2013-2019 - what other Honda rider challlenged for the championship during that time?
 
craig bush said:
You seem to be arguing from a position of emotion and personal investment, and it seems to cloud your objectivity. This is evidenced by the fact that Marquez wasn’t robbed of the 2019 championship - he won it. I think you meant to reference the 2020 championship, which, you’re correct - he wasn’t robbed, he crashed.

And before that crash, he rode from 16th to 3rd in like 8 laps. No one, not even Stoner, has so dominated the field similarly, in the modern era. Can you identify a rider who could do the same today?

You assert that if Marc was as talented as others claim, he would have ridden over the bikes issues. Who says he wasn’t? He won 6 championships from 2013-2019 - what other Honda rider challlenged for the championship during that time?
Click to expand...

I did mess up the 2019 and 2020 year but that's not emotional its forgetting facts. I never dismissed his talent in 2013 - 2019 I was saying if he was as an alien he would have overridden the problems the current bike has. I personally don't believe in the mm alien thing. that's what I was saying . I actually like him denying his talent is absurd I'm trying to say these rules you people have laid down dont hold water. for example: if everyone is average except for mm and DP and martin and bagnia are simply average guys riding much much faster bikes then next year Marq marquez will have to win a championship and have a win record at least as good as win record as Jorge Martin.

I believe the ducati is a minor advantage and the vrcrew and the younger talent runing ahead of Marq M are caught up to him and now are actually much better. I'm clearly not allowed to have this opinion because youre emotionally obligated to defend MM. what will happen if MM doesnt at least dominate and win the championship will you blame the bike that seems emotionally detached from reality
 

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