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Alkhater · Apr 15, 2023

bp_SFV4 said:
Even at the novice level?

My gripe with the OEM brakes is that the lever feel is soft but the bite is much greater than the level or lever feel would suggest. I don't know if that's an ABS thing or master piston to caliper piston ratio thing. At my level, I think this is a more software than hardware problem...

My experience was the same but with the corsa corta set on race the feeling is very direct.

Though ultimately I share most opinions on ABS removal for best feel and control. It’s the same on 4 wheels.

RickD996 · Apr 15, 2023

bp_SFV4 said:
More interested to hear if there's an appreciable difference in level feel with it removed.

I've blanked my pump, and have lines direct to the calipers. So, there won't be any difference in feel. The advantage, should be weight saving.

RickD996 · Apr 15, 2023

Steven31371 said:
Agreed…i brake later than just about everybody I go to the track with but I’m still braking more than them and not carrying enough corner entry speed…i brake later but over brake and am slower around the track than guys braking ten meters earlier.

Also agreed to ABS essentually never kicking in, even on the hardest braking the rear end just comes off the ground instead of the front wheel sliding when braking in a straight line.

My concern with abs delete as a relatively new track rider is not hard braking in a straight line, it’s entering a corner on the wrong line at the wrong speed, have the front start to wash out if I over brake at too much lean, and the abs saves me in that scenario. Which I believe it is capable of doing.

I spend a lot of time, working on, when I release the brake. It's, arguably, more important than when you brake (for lap times). If, I'm entering the corner, and I'm not getting at least a little scared, then I've over braked.
So, I could either try and brake later, or get off the brakes sooner. The later is advantageous, as it gives you more room for error, in the braking phase.

craig bush · Apr 15, 2023

Bruce Wayne said:
Corner speed is everything.

I always thought this was the case, but with increasing frequency, I hear discussion that the point-and-shoot riding style is the way to fast lap times with bikes that make big power (like wsbk and MotoGP).

craig bush · Apr 15, 2023

Bruce Wayne said:
… you wouldn't snap the throttle open full right at the apex.

I’ve always thought this was the case also, but watch the video linked below (MA sbk rider at Barber) and listen to the TC activation.

RickD996 · Apr 15, 2023

craig bush said:
I’ve always thought this was the case also, but watch the video linked below (MA sbk rider at Barber) and listen to the TC activation.

Craig! Any news on the swingarm pivot shizzle?

SuperDomestique · Apr 15, 2023

For non-race applications keeping ABS, esp cornering ABS, can be helpful when learning how to trail brake. Anyone can brake hard in a straight line. That’s easy. Learning how to taper the brake into the apex is the difficult scary bit. Granted, I’ve yet to get into the ABS on track but I’d rather have that cornering ABS and go wide than to lock the front at lean and go down.

RickD996 · Apr 15, 2023

SuperDomestique said:
For non-race applications keeping ABS, esp cornering ABS, can be helpful when learning how to trail brake. Anyone can brake hard in a straight line. That’s easy. Learning how to taper the brake into the apex is the difficult scary bit. Granted, I’ve yet to get into the ABS on track but I’d rather have that cornering ABS and go wide than to lock the front at lean and go down.

100% it's a great aid

craig bush · Apr 15, 2023

RickD996 said:
Craig! Any news on the swingarm pivot shizzle?

Sourcing all the ancillary pieces of kit has been a challenge, but I’m told it’s coming together. Hopefully in the next few months.

Same with the sbk fuel tank, subframe, and seat.

Any thoughts on that Nolan Lamkin video - notice how TC is active immediately on throttle application?

baggerman · Apr 15, 2023

If you are a novice and going to race you just have to get rid of the abs. Buy a 400 to toss away. The use of abs will never allow you to learn to feel when things are going awry. These are some seriously competent devices and expensive to toss away so the absolute wrong thing to learn skills on. All of this electronics is robbing novices of some basic needed skills. Personally I think the ability to catch highsides is really important for ones longterm survival. Anyone learning to ride with the modern yaw and traction control stuff will never learn to do this. The electronics is not going to always save you. Hard (impossible?) to lock up a modern front in a straight line, if you transferred weight to the front appropriately. Toss you over the bars but lock up? Well I've never tried a shinko touring front. Maximum braking is when all the weight is on the front with the rear 1/8 inch in the air. The max straight line braking thing becomes a muscle memory thing after awhile front feels mushy back wags.

SuperDomestique · Apr 15, 2023

craig bush said:
I’ve always thought this was the case also, but watch the video linked below (MA sbk rider at Barber) and listen to the TC activation.

If I’m not mistaken, the S1000RR in full WSBK spec runs on 2 cylinders at partial throttle and lean. Sounds similar to SR BMW

Steven31371 · Apr 15, 2023

baggerman said:
If you are a novice and going to race you just have to get rid of the abs. Buy a 400 to toss away. The use of abs will never allow you to learn to feel when things are going awry. These are some seriously competent devices and expensive to toss away so the absolute wrong thing to learn skills on. All of this electronics is robbing novices of some basic needed skills. Personally I think the ability to catch highsides is really important for ones longterm survival. Anyone learning to ride with the modern yaw and traction control stuff will never learn to do this. The electronics is not going to always save you. Hard (impossible?) to lock up a modern front in a straight line, if you transferred weight to the front appropriately. Toss you over the bars but lock up? Well I've never tried a shinko touring front. Maximum braking is when all the weight is on the front with the rear 1/8 inch in the air. The max straight line braking thing becomes a muscle memory thing after awhile front feels mushy back wags.

I have a completely analogue 2005 Gixxer that’s set up for racing that I bought as a cheap but fast bike to learn on, but haven’t used it yet, the next two or three track days I think I’m going to use that bike to let my balls drop and increase my corner entry speed lol

The whole bike cost less than the exhaust on the Ducati lol

Bruce Wayne · Apr 15, 2023

craig bush said:
I’ve always thought this was the case also, but watch the video linked below (MA sbk rider at Barber) and listen to the TC activation.

I was more kind of referring to the question about novice rider's and ABS and again this is just my opinion.

Bruce Wayne · Apr 15, 2023

Steven31371 said:
I have a completely analogue 2005 Gixxer that’s set up for racing that I bought as a cheap but fast bike to learn on, but haven’t used it yet, the next two or three track days I think I’m going to use that bike to let my balls drop and increase my corner entry speed lol

The whole bike cost less than the exhaust on the Ducati lol

That will be interesting, i have my V4 track bike similar spec to yours but im not concerned about crashing it so i can put down some decent lap times if I'm in the mood, but I also have a HP4 RACE that I'm terrified of crashing almost to the point of not riding it hard enough and potentially causing a crash with tyres cooling down, the stupid part is the HP4 cost me less than the Ducati

SuperDomestique · Apr 15, 2023

Bruce Wayne said:
That will be interesting, i have my V4 track bike similar spec to yours but im not concerned about crashing it so i can put down some decent lap times if I'm in the mood

I guess this is a good mindset to have. Keeps you relaxed and focused on the riding and the moment and not on the equipment.

Steven31371 · Apr 15, 2023

Bruce Wayne said:
That will be interesting, i have my V4 track bike similar spec to yours but im not concerned about crashing it so i can put down some decent lap times if I'm in the mood, but I also have a HP4 RACE that I'm terrified of crashing almost to the point of not riding it hard enough and potentially causing a crash with tyres cooling down, the stupid part is the HP4 cost me less than the Ducati

Haha yeah but the parts are so hard to replace on that HP4 Race that I kinda get it…even though there is a pretty penny into our Ducati’s the add ons are somewhat modular and fairly easy to replace, having said that with mine it’s there in the back of my head that I just don’t wanna lay that bike down. Definately makes me ride it more gingerly than I should on corner entry, I flog it pretty good coming off an apex because I feel comfortable managing a rear wheel slide and keeping her upright, but I just haven’t had to deal with recovering the front going away, I’d rather learn that on a $7k bike instead of a $120k bike lol

RickD996 · Apr 15, 2023

baggerman said:
If you are a novice and going to race you just have to get rid of the abs. Buy a 400 to toss away. The use of abs will never allow you to learn to feel when things are going awry. These are some seriously competent devices and expensive to toss away so the absolute wrong thing to learn skills on. All of this electronics is robbing novices of some basic needed skills. Personally I think the ability to catch highsides is really important for ones longterm survival. Anyone learning to ride with the modern yaw and traction control stuff will never learn to do this. The electronics is not going to always save you. Hard (impossible?) to lock up a modern front in a straight line, if you transferred weight to the front appropriately. Toss you over the bars but lock up? Well I've never tried a shinko touring front. Maximum braking is when all the weight is on the front with the rear 1/8 inch in the air. The max straight line braking thing becomes a muscle memory thing after awhile front feels mushy back wags.

Don't underestimate how strong the brakes are on the V4! It's only happened once, but I locked the front, in a straight line, on Dunlop slicks, in Spain earlier this year. Tyres were fully up to temp. Handlebars snapped sideways in the blink of an eye, and fortunately snapped back even quicker. Definitely lifted the heart rate! Kept my line too

Front end is amazing on the V4.

RickD996 · Apr 15, 2023

craig bush said:
Sourcing all the ancillary pieces of kit has been a challenge, but I’m told it’s coming together. Hopefully in the next few months.

Same with the sbk fuel tank, subframe, and seat.

Any thoughts on that Nolan Lamkin video - notice how TC is active immediately on throttle application?

Re the Lamkin vid. I don't know much about the BM electronics, so not sure what's going on, tc or cylinder deactivation. Perhaps Bruce knows more?

Hope all the bits come through! Has he swapped an engine case? Or, is he hoping to achieve with different bolts and rearsets etc?

SuperDomestique · Apr 16, 2023

RickD996 said:
Don't underestimate how strong the brakes are on the V4! It's only happened once, but I locked the front, in a straight line, on Dunlop slicks, in Spain earlier this year. Tyres were fully up to temp. Handlebars snapped sideways in the blink of an eye, and fortunately snapped back even quicker. Definitely lifted the heart rate! Kept my line too
Front end is amazing on the V4.

For some reason, you only get to do this once. It’s like the gods have taken mercy on you. The next time, you usually find yourself on the deck

baggerman · Apr 16, 2023

I agree the brakes are awesome (all the 330 stuff is simply the best) but i've never locked up the front after appropriately transferring weight, at least not in the last 30 years. I bet you hit a snotty patch. Or your application was a little too sudden or a little of both. The first time I put the bike on the front stand I was amazed on how much weight is on the front. And the counter rotating crank really makes a difference at speed. Easiest bike to ride fast as delivered by the factory I've ever owned.

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