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Bruce Wayne said:
We have ours bypassed, ABS is dangerous on track IMO, but would like to get rid of the pump
Click to expand...
Even at the novice level?

My gripe with the OEM brakes is that the lever feel is soft but the bite is much greater than the level or lever feel would suggest. I don't know if that's an ABS thing or master piston to caliper piston ratio thing. At my level, I think this is a more software than hardware problem...
 
bp_SFV4 said:
Even at the novice level?

My gripe with the OEM brakes is that the lever feel is soft but the bite is much greater than the level or lever feel would suggest. I don't know if that's an ABS thing or master piston to caliper piston ratio thing. At my level, I think this is a more software than hardware problem...
Click to expand...

Personal opinion only, but yes i think even novice level, it's almost impossible to lock the front wheel with modern tyres (almost) and it's more difficult to learn how to brake on a racetrack with ABS for two reasons, one if your relying on it to help you brake you won't improve as fast, second when you do start getting your head around it the ABS becomes unpredictable.
This is obviously just my opinion.
Braking on a racetrack for novice isn't about how late you can brake, most novice rider's brake way too hard because they are braking as late as they think they can, a good test to try if you're a new rider and you can get the track to yourself is brake where you normally do but keep braking and i guarantee most would come to a complete stop at or just after the apex.
Corner speed is everything.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Personal opinion only, but yes i think even novice level, it's almost impossible to lock the front wheel with modern tyres (almost) and it's more difficult to learn how to brake on a racetrack with ABS for two reasons, one if your relying on it to help you brake you won't improve as fast, second when you do start getting your head around it the ABS becomes unpredictable.
This is obviously just my opinion.
Braking on a racetrack for novice isn't about how late you can brake, most novice rider's brake way too hard because they are braking as late as they think they can, a good test to try if you're a new rider and you can get the track to yourself is brake where you normally do but keep braking and i guarantee most would come to a complete stop at or just after the apex.
Corner speed is everything.
Click to expand...

Agreed…i brake later than just about everybody I go to the track with but I’m still braking more than them and not carrying enough corner entry speed…i brake later but over brake and am slower around the track than guys braking ten meters earlier.

Also agreed to ABS essentually never kicking in, even on the hardest braking the rear end just comes off the ground instead of the front wheel sliding when braking in a straight line.

My concern with abs delete as a relatively new track rider is not hard braking in a straight line, it’s entering a corner on the wrong line at the wrong speed, have the front start to wash out if I over brake at too much lean, and the abs saves me in that scenario. Which I believe it is capable of doing.
 
Steven31371 said:
Agreed…i brake later than just about everybody I go to the track with but I’m still braking more than them and not carrying enough corner entry speed…i brake later but over brake and am slower around the track than guys braking ten meters earlier.

Also agreed to ABS essentually never kicking in, even on the hardest braking the rear end just comes off the ground instead of the front wheel sliding when braking in a straight line.

My concern with abs delete as a relatively new track rider is not hard braking in a straight line, it’s entering a corner on the wrong line at the wrong speed, have the front start to wash out if I over brake at too much lean, and the abs saves me in that scenario. Which I believe it is capable of doing.
Click to expand...

This is exactly my point, as a novice if you are trying to brake as late as possible you are essentially running before you can walk. For example if a pro rider brakes at a 90 deg bend At 50m mark and takes the corner at 100kmh and he is on the limit sliding into the corner the the novice rider brakes same point but his corner speed is 70kmh in that situation he has to wash off an extra 30kmh, it's never going to work! You should look at the brake like the throttle in reverse just like you wouldn't snap the throttle open full right at the apex most novice rider's do exactly that with the brake. Sometimes you need to go slower to get faster. I would almost guarantee that most novice rider's set their fastest times when it feels the slowest.
 
bp_SFV4 said:
Even at the novice level?

My gripe with the OEM brakes is that the lever feel is soft but the bite is much greater than the level or lever feel would suggest. I don't know if that's an ABS thing or master piston to caliper piston ratio thing. At my level, I think this is a more software than hardware problem...
Click to expand...
My experience was the same but with the corsa corta set on race the feeling is very direct.

Though ultimately I share most opinions on ABS removal for best feel and control. It’s the same on 4 wheels.
 
Steven31371 said:
Agreed…i brake later than just about everybody I go to the track with but I’m still braking more than them and not carrying enough corner entry speed…i brake later but over brake and am slower around the track than guys braking ten meters earlier.

Also agreed to ABS essentually never kicking in, even on the hardest braking the rear end just comes off the ground instead of the front wheel sliding when braking in a straight line.

My concern with abs delete as a relatively new track rider is not hard braking in a straight line, it’s entering a corner on the wrong line at the wrong speed, have the front start to wash out if I over brake at too much lean, and the abs saves me in that scenario. Which I believe it is capable of doing.
Click to expand...

I spend a lot of time, working on, when I release the brake. It's, arguably, more important than when you brake (for lap times). If, I'm entering the corner, and I'm not getting at least a little scared, then I've over braked.
So, I could either try and brake later, or get off the brakes sooner. The later is advantageous, as it gives you more room for error, in the braking phase.
 
For non-race applications keeping ABS, esp cornering ABS, can be helpful when learning how to trail brake. Anyone can brake hard in a straight line. That’s easy. Learning how to taper the brake into the apex is the difficult scary bit. Granted, I’ve yet to get into the ABS on track but I’d rather have that cornering ABS and go wide than to lock the front at lean and go down.
 
SuperDomestique said:
For non-race applications keeping ABS, esp cornering ABS, can be helpful when learning how to trail brake. Anyone can brake hard in a straight line. That’s easy. Learning how to taper the brake into the apex is the difficult scary bit. Granted, I’ve yet to get into the ABS on track but I’d rather have that cornering ABS and go wide than to lock the front at lean and go down.
Click to expand...

100% it's a great aid 👌
 
RickD996 said:
Craig! Any news on the swingarm pivot shizzle?
Click to expand...

Sourcing all the ancillary pieces of kit has been a challenge, but I’m told it’s coming together. Hopefully in the next few months. 🤞

Same with the sbk fuel tank, subframe, and seat.

Any thoughts on that Nolan Lamkin video - notice how TC is active immediately on throttle application?
 
If you are a novice and going to race you just have to get rid of the abs. Buy a 400 to toss away. The use of abs will never allow you to learn to feel when things are going awry. These are some seriously competent devices and expensive to toss away so the absolute wrong thing to learn skills on. All of this electronics is robbing novices of some basic needed skills. Personally I think the ability to catch highsides is really important for ones longterm survival. Anyone learning to ride with the modern yaw and traction control stuff will never learn to do this. The electronics is not going to always save you. Hard (impossible?) to lock up a modern front in a straight line, if you transferred weight to the front appropriately. Toss you over the bars but lock up? Well I've never tried a shinko touring front. Maximum braking is when all the weight is on the front with the rear 1/8 inch in the air. The max straight line braking thing becomes a muscle memory thing after awhile front feels mushy back wags.
 
craig bush said:
I’ve always thought this was the case also, but watch the video linked below (MA sbk rider at Barber) and listen to the TC activation.

Click to expand...


If I’m not mistaken, the S1000RR in full WSBK spec runs on 2 cylinders at partial throttle and lean. Sounds similar to SR BMW

 
baggerman said:
If you are a novice and going to race you just have to get rid of the abs. Buy a 400 to toss away. The use of abs will never allow you to learn to feel when things are going awry. These are some seriously competent devices and expensive to toss away so the absolute wrong thing to learn skills on. All of this electronics is robbing novices of some basic needed skills. Personally I think the ability to catch highsides is really important for ones longterm survival. Anyone learning to ride with the modern yaw and traction control stuff will never learn to do this. The electronics is not going to always save you. Hard (impossible?) to lock up a modern front in a straight line, if you transferred weight to the front appropriately. Toss you over the bars but lock up? Well I've never tried a shinko touring front. Maximum braking is when all the weight is on the front with the rear 1/8 inch in the air. The max straight line braking thing becomes a muscle memory thing after awhile front feels mushy back wags.
Click to expand...

I have a completely analogue 2005 Gixxer that’s set up for racing that I bought as a cheap but fast bike to learn on, but haven’t used it yet, the next two or three track days I think I’m going to use that bike to let my balls drop and increase my corner entry speed lol

The whole bike cost less than the exhaust on the Ducati lol
 
craig bush said:
I’ve always thought this was the case also, but watch the video linked below (MA sbk rider at Barber) and listen to the TC activation.

Click to expand...


I was more kind of referring to the question about novice rider's and ABS and again this is just my opinion.
 
Steven31371 said:
I have a completely analogue 2005 Gixxer that’s set up for racing that I bought as a cheap but fast bike to learn on, but haven’t used it yet, the next two or three track days I think I’m going to use that bike to let my balls drop and increase my corner entry speed lol

The whole bike cost less than the exhaust on the Ducati lol
Click to expand...

That will be interesting, i have my V4 track bike similar spec to yours but im not concerned about crashing it so i can put down some decent lap times if I'm in the mood, but I also have a HP4 RACE that I'm terrified of crashing almost to the point of not riding it hard enough and potentially causing a crash with tyres cooling down, the stupid part is the HP4 cost me less than the Ducati 🤦
 
Bruce Wayne said:
That will be interesting, i have my V4 track bike similar spec to yours but im not concerned about crashing it so i can put down some decent lap times if I'm in the mood
Click to expand...

I guess this is a good mindset to have. Keeps you relaxed and focused on the riding and the moment and not on the equipment.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
That will be interesting, i have my V4 track bike similar spec to yours but im not concerned about crashing it so i can put down some decent lap times if I'm in the mood, but I also have a HP4 RACE that I'm terrified of crashing almost to the point of not riding it hard enough and potentially causing a crash with tyres cooling down, the stupid part is the HP4 cost me less than the Ducati 🤦
Click to expand...

Haha yeah but the parts are so hard to replace on that HP4 Race that I kinda get it…even though there is a pretty penny into our Ducati’s the add ons are somewhat modular and fairly easy to replace, having said that with mine it’s there in the back of my head that I just don’t wanna lay that bike down. Definately makes me ride it more gingerly than I should on corner entry, I flog it pretty good coming off an apex because I feel comfortable managing a rear wheel slide and keeping her upright, but I just haven’t had to deal with recovering the front going away, I’d rather learn that on a $7k bike instead of a $120k bike lol
 

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