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this is an older comment, probably from the early days of pulsing abs where the lever vibrated, things have moved on but if ABS was superior at stopping on a track then racers would use it
 
If it is true in 1996 NHTSA dropped the ABS mandate, in 2011 or 2012 they mandated stability controls systems which includes ABS and traction control.

I don't know what the entire source text for what Paul G posted was, or the date it was written, there are newer articles which refute the stopping distance thing.
 
bp_SFV4 said:
If it is true in 1996 NHTSA dropped the ABS mandate, in 2011 or 2012 they mandated stability controls systems which includes ABS and traction control.

I don't know what the entire source text for what Paul G posted was, or the date it was written, there are newer articles which refute the stopping distance thing.
Click to expand...

Yeah!

This debate is also heavily dependant on the vehicles in question and the ability of the person operating them.

The average person will most likely achieve better braking performance with ABS than without in most cases.

A skilled person might do better without ABS in a high performance vehicle with sticky tires but the same person in a pickup truck will likely see those chances reduced.
 
If we're purely talking collision avoidance, steering is more effective than braking...generally. Under emergency stopping conditions steering remains with ABS intervention.

No matter what, I'm WAY better off with ABS, DTC, DWC, etc enabled, be it my SUV or Panigale. I have turned off traction control on the SUV when driving in the snow though.

I like how on the 2022+ bikes they changed the dash to show which aid was being activated. I wonder with data logging if you can see how much it, be it ABS or DTC, was intervening.
 
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This is a really interesting topic and i can relate to both sides of the argument... btw i have no idea how it became one but this seems to be a recurring theme around here 😂

I think that ABS differs from traction control in a way that's difficult for me to describe right now. Having had some experience with car/kart racing I recognize the advantages of no ABS, simply put it's control and predictability which equates to speed. Traction control is much easier to rely on for some reason, perhaps because of the way it intervenes and the effects of those interventions or lack thereof on racing line.

This may be the reason why ABS isn't used in top motorsport but a definitive answer is probably a google search away 😂 so now I have some reading to do in my free time lol
 
I have also ridden for years without ABS. My issue with it is if you're in a situation like you've found a seriously decreasing radius corner and need to trail in hard to keep you in the your lane, you know one of those oh .... moments and the abs then intervenes and you run wide. Not good. So in dry situations I too would like to turn it off. But for the rain...
 
Bruce Wayne said:
We have ours bypassed, ABS is dangerous on track IMO, but would like to get rid of the pump
Click to expand...
Even at the novice level?

My gripe with the OEM brakes is that the lever feel is soft but the bite is much greater than the level or lever feel would suggest. I don't know if that's an ABS thing or master piston to caliper piston ratio thing. At my level, I think this is a more software than hardware problem...
 
bp_SFV4 said:
Even at the novice level?

My gripe with the OEM brakes is that the lever feel is soft but the bite is much greater than the level or lever feel would suggest. I don't know if that's an ABS thing or master piston to caliper piston ratio thing. At my level, I think this is a more software than hardware problem...
Click to expand...

Personal opinion only, but yes i think even novice level, it's almost impossible to lock the front wheel with modern tyres (almost) and it's more difficult to learn how to brake on a racetrack with ABS for two reasons, one if your relying on it to help you brake you won't improve as fast, second when you do start getting your head around it the ABS becomes unpredictable.
This is obviously just my opinion.
Braking on a racetrack for novice isn't about how late you can brake, most novice rider's brake way too hard because they are braking as late as they think they can, a good test to try if you're a new rider and you can get the track to yourself is brake where you normally do but keep braking and i guarantee most would come to a complete stop at or just after the apex.
Corner speed is everything.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Personal opinion only, but yes i think even novice level, it's almost impossible to lock the front wheel with modern tyres (almost) and it's more difficult to learn how to brake on a racetrack with ABS for two reasons, one if your relying on it to help you brake you won't improve as fast, second when you do start getting your head around it the ABS becomes unpredictable.
This is obviously just my opinion.
Braking on a racetrack for novice isn't about how late you can brake, most novice rider's brake way too hard because they are braking as late as they think they can, a good test to try if you're a new rider and you can get the track to yourself is brake where you normally do but keep braking and i guarantee most would come to a complete stop at or just after the apex.
Corner speed is everything.
Click to expand...

Agreed…i brake later than just about everybody I go to the track with but I’m still braking more than them and not carrying enough corner entry speed…i brake later but over brake and am slower around the track than guys braking ten meters earlier.

Also agreed to ABS essentually never kicking in, even on the hardest braking the rear end just comes off the ground instead of the front wheel sliding when braking in a straight line.

My concern with abs delete as a relatively new track rider is not hard braking in a straight line, it’s entering a corner on the wrong line at the wrong speed, have the front start to wash out if I over brake at too much lean, and the abs saves me in that scenario. Which I believe it is capable of doing.
 
Steven31371 said:
Agreed…i brake later than just about everybody I go to the track with but I’m still braking more than them and not carrying enough corner entry speed…i brake later but over brake and am slower around the track than guys braking ten meters earlier.

Also agreed to ABS essentually never kicking in, even on the hardest braking the rear end just comes off the ground instead of the front wheel sliding when braking in a straight line.

My concern with abs delete as a relatively new track rider is not hard braking in a straight line, it’s entering a corner on the wrong line at the wrong speed, have the front start to wash out if I over brake at too much lean, and the abs saves me in that scenario. Which I believe it is capable of doing.
Click to expand...

This is exactly my point, as a novice if you are trying to brake as late as possible you are essentially running before you can walk. For example if a pro rider brakes at a 90 deg bend At 50m mark and takes the corner at 100kmh and he is on the limit sliding into the corner the the novice rider brakes same point but his corner speed is 70kmh in that situation he has to wash off an extra 30kmh, it's never going to work! You should look at the brake like the throttle in reverse just like you wouldn't snap the throttle open full right at the apex most novice rider's do exactly that with the brake. Sometimes you need to go slower to get faster. I would almost guarantee that most novice rider's set their fastest times when it feels the slowest.
 

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