T-800 upmap for Arrow pipes

RobertH · Aug 9, 2020

I see Termignoni now offers upmap maps specifically for the Arrow slip-on exhausts, with or without DB killers. I have the older version Arrow slip-ons and am currently running the Termi slip-on mapping. It seems to run well enough but am wondering if anyone here has tried the actual arrow exhaust mapping ? I expect it'd be pretty much identical to what I already have....

Motzarelli · Aug 10, 2020

I saw this also and am interested in any feed back

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KurtP · Aug 12, 2020

Re your other post. Putting this here to try and get the other thread back on track.

Yeah they wan the o2 sensors pulled out. what they want is to force the bike to run open loop on the map they programmed.

i dont think anyone has clarity on whether or not the t800 simply disables the error code for removing the O2 sensors or if the o2 sensors are disabled.

WyldCFH · Aug 12, 2020

I would suspect, if they are advising to unplug them, they are just killing the error code. If they are disabled in the ECU, no need to unplug.

That said, if you unplug them, pull them out and put a plug in their place. It is said, if left in but not working it can ruin them. In the event you would need to activate them down the road, they may not work and you;d have to replace them.

KurtP · Aug 12, 2020

WyldCFH said:
I would suspect, if they are advising to unplug them, they are just killing the error code. If they are disabled in the ECU, no need to unplug.

That said, if you unplug them, pull them out and put a plug in their place. It is said, if left in but not working it can ruin them. In the event you would need to activate them down the road, they may not work and you;d have to replace them.

sounds plausible. i dont have any insight on what they are doing with the map. I think if it were me, id set it up the way they say to, see how it rides and check a/f and knock correction at part throttle and wot on a dyno. If it rides well and is safe then fine it works. If it has part throttle issues, id plug the o2’s back in and check part throttle a/f again and then lambda shift. I dont have a good sense of how well they do their mapping. It could be fine, I just havent seen much independent data on any of the t800 maps.

ArcticWhite · Aug 12, 2020

When I was using the T800 map, my bike was running lean at about 5800 rpm cruising. This was with the O2 sensors still installed. If it was running closed loop, this should not have been possible. I dont know exactly what it was doing as I was not able to scan the ecu, but it was definitely running lean at cruise when it ahould have been closed loop.

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KurtP · Aug 12, 2020

ArcticWhite said:
When I was using the T800 map, my bike was running lean at about 5800 rpm cruising. This was with the O2 sensors still installed. If it was running closed loop, this should not have been possible. I dont know exactly what it was doing as I was not able to scan the ecu, but it was definitely running lean at cruise when it ahould have been closed loop.

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could indicate closed loop is disabled on the t800, or they disabled fuel trims Which is even worse.

Were you running widebands at the time? What was the afr You saw?

Motzarelli · Aug 12, 2020

Here are the last few email responses of which their first few were one or two word responses and not making any sense.

If someone with some knowledge on this subject wants to pick up and find out more here is their email and just say it is reference to the emails with Vincent and the 2018 Panigale V4.

[email protected]

- Thanks to our mapping the lambda probes are disabled.

If they are mounted they try to correct various parameters and this is not good,

so now try to disconnect the wires of the lambda probe.

UpMap.

- There was nothing in your instructions about disconnecting the lambda sensors? I’m confused.
Vincent

- The removal of the lambda sensors is not mandatory,

but we recommend it because the bike works better without .

UpMap.

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KurtP · Aug 12, 2020

My best guess from that is that they disable the error code and when the bike doesnt get a signal is goes to their open loop mapping.

im speculating they couldnt figure out how to deal with closed loop or ltft which is what they are saying is “throwing off the mapping”

im curious to get arctic’s data on when he said his t800 was running lean when the bike was in what would be a closed loop operation cycle. My guess is the exhaust made the popping and throttle issues more pronounced but afr at the probe was still stoic. To know for sure we need to see data on tps, stft, ltft, and afr.

my advice remains. Run it how they want and check your afr. If you can datalog knock correction then check that too. if the afr looks like .... at cruise then plug the probes back in and lambda shift them Down below 1volt. ride it for a while and then check afr to see if ltft made it run too rich On open loop.

Motzarelli · Aug 13, 2020

I am a bit of a simpleton when it comes to tuning.

Most of what you said makes a little sense but not completely.

On the other thread someone said to remove the sensors as they can be damaged if in place and not connected? Should I do this or can I just disconnect them?

Oh and I have no way of testing anything other than going for a ride.

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KurtP · Aug 13, 2020

Then just run it the way they say to for the upmap. Remove the o2 sensors and see how it rides. Not much else you can do.

what you dont want to do is unplug the connectors and leave the Probes in the pipes

vcyclenut · Aug 13, 2020

closed loop will always be lean, the o2 sensors on our bikes are narrow band not wide band they can not correct the fueling where we want it for proper throttle response.

Closed loop being a good thing on motorcycle is a common misconception. Especially people familiar with modern car tuning

KurtP · Aug 13, 2020

vcyclenut said:
closed loop will always be lean, the o2 sensors on our bikes are narrow band not wide band they can not correct the fueling where we want it for proper throttle response.

Closed loop being a good thing on motorcycle is a common misconception. Especially people familiar with modern car tuning

yes, they can. You just have to drop the voltage coming from the o2 sensor. Ive been doing it on narrow bands for a long time and so have lots of other people.

my bike runs 13.9 +/- .1 afr in closed loop by shifting the voltage off the o2 sensor from 1 to about .939. The ecm see’s low voltage which signals a lean condition so it adds fuel. once my voltage regulator sees the voltage it needs to see for the afr ive set, instead of sending a high voltage signal to the ecu, it sends a value of 1 and it holds. You just have to know how much voltage to trim to get the afr you want by coinciding voltage output by the sensor to a wideband controller. Once you translate the language you can trim it however you want.

im perplexed by the view point that you think a narrowband unit can be used to hold the bike perfectly lean at 14.7 to meet emissions, but that we cant interrupt that signal to make it do what we want. BMW has started trying to add various o2 sensor signal checks to try and stop this that require some work arounds. outside of that, voltage shift is all you need to remedy closed loop fueling.

KurtP · Aug 13, 2020

Ill also add the closed loop is kind of important for a road going bike. If i start a trip in Kansas, ride to denver at 5kft one day, then ride over the mountains to Ouray and then up Imogene pass the next day to 14k feet, temperature has swung 50degrees, density altitude has been all over the map, and my octane availability has dropped from 93 to 87, how is open loop supposed to account for that? It cant very effectively, because you have no short or long term fuel trims. You just have your tables.

its an extreme example, and if all you do is ride within a 100mile radius of your house then maybe it doesnt matter to you, and thats fine. Different people prioritize different things. Id rather have my bike run the way it should regardless of the environment And without having to “gotta check my tune, bruh”

im open to being proven wrong. But ive never seen data that shows an openloop only map that can account for all of these variables as efficiently as appropriately adjusting closed loop.

KurtP · Aug 13, 2020

I borrowed these charts from another forum im on from the guy who designed the device im using. You can see clear as day when we set the voltage regulation the way we want it the afr in closed loop does exactly what we wanted. Now our o2 sensors are doing all the work ensuring afr stays where we want it as conditions change; to include change from e-10 to e-0. Good luck doing that with open loop. And as its adjusting closed loop, its trimming open loop to keep it all in order.

remember. You have to be at least 10% smarter than any piece of equipment youre using.

Motzarelli · Aug 13, 2020

Just so I’m clear....

Closed loop is using the O2 sensors and adjusting the fueling according to the real-time AFR

Open loop removes the O2 sensors from the picture and purely relies on the map which does not account for environmental factors such as temperature and altitude.

I can’t understand why you would want to run a system that didn’t adjust for the here and now environment.

I’m in a bit of a flap as I have a track day at the end of the month and need my bike somewhat sorted before I thrash the .... out of it. [emoji848]

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KurtP · Aug 13, 2020

Yes. Closed loop uses the O2’s to adjust air fuel ratio

open loop still has ways of deciding how much fuel you want by referencing throttle input, Air temp sensor, Pressure sensor etc. its just stuck with what its programmed with to an extent, and cant trim those tables as well without short and long term fuel trim data from the o2’s.

for a track day just run the upmap with the o2’s unplugged like they want. It will be as fine as they programmed it to be. Most of your track time will be in open loop. Many of these maps just run rich to keep them safe and feel decent riding down the road. Ideally you want open and closed loop working together. I dont know how well the map is written or if the continental ecm has the ability to adjust table values with the o2’s disabled.

Im guessing the reason they want the o2’s out is that long term learning of LTFT will overwrite part or all of their upmap file. So if you leave the o2’s in and unshifted, the ecu will unlearn their changes In part or full over time.

ArcticWhite · Aug 13, 2020

To be completely correct, speed density open loop operation uses throttle, MAP and temp sensors to do real time fuelling off of tables. Fueling adjustments for environmental factors are calculated. So they are accounted for, but you are not directly measuring and controlling to AFR.

Before you think "thats just crazy, the bike can't run right like that", WOT on the factory bike (and even if you add a device that does voltage shifting) is open loop on these bikes. So, the most critical time where the engine is most stressed and where fuelling errors can result in engine failure, is open loop.

It may be mentioned that there is learning that happens under closed loop that then adjusts open loop operation. However, that learning is limited to small adjustments that cannot correct enough for extreme temp and baro. That is not the fuel trims purpose. The bulk of that fueling in open loop relies on tables and calcs. The learning is really there to adjust for wear and minor changes like dirty air filters. If you took away the temp and baro calcs and just relied on fuel trims to compensate, you would not have a well running bike.

So argue all you want on which strategy is better, but open loop better be good because your bike is using it whether you like it or not.

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KurtP · Aug 13, 2020

ArcticWhite said:
To be completely correct, speed density open loop operation uses throttle, MAP and temp sensors to do real time fuelling off of tables. Fueling adjustments for environmental factors are calculated. So they are accounted for, but you are not directly measuring and controlling to AFR.

Before you think "thats just crazy, the bike can't run right like that", WOT on the factory bike (and even if you add a device that does voltage shifting) is open loop on these bikes. So, the most critical time where the engine is most stressed and where fuelling errors can result in engine failure, is open loop.

It may be mentioned that there is learning that happens under closed loop that then adjusts open loop operation. However, that learning is limited to small adjustments that cannot correct enough for extreme temp and baro. That is not the fuel trims purpose. The bulk of that fueling in open loop relies on tables and calcs. The learning is really there to adjust for wear and minor changes like dirty air filters. If you took away the temp and baro calcs and just relied on fuel trims to compensate, you would not have a well running bike.

So argue all you want on which strategy is better, but open loop better be good because your bike is using it whether you like it or not.

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youre completely wrong. I could upregulate my fuel pressure with a booster and fuel trims would dial it right out. I could alter my temp sensor to read 20deg lower than actual and fuel trims would dial it right out. I could rewrite just my open loop fueling tables and if I dont adjust learning range, fuel trims will dial it right out.

this has all been definitively proven, and the data exists to show it. Youre a solid 20years behind what ecu’s are doing now.

ArcticWhite · Aug 13, 2020

Since no one is talking about this I will give you one of many examples they may not want to utilize closed loop.

Let's say you have an exhaust leak. At low exhaust flow, the air leaking in is significant and really throws off your afr. At high exhaust flow, it only makes a minor difference.

Now, the closed loop only happens at low rpm, low load, which means low exhaust flow. It sees this leak and says "i have to add 10% more fuel for this leak". Now you have 10% more fuel added to your wide open throttle fuelling, when no change should have been made, and if it was reading o2 at higher exhaust flow, would have known that.

This system makes an assumption that what the engine needs for correction at low rpm low load, is what it needs at high rpm high load. This is simply not always the case.

Also, if tuning on the edge, you do not want unknowns like fuel trims possibly pushing you over the edge. You want fixed knowns and want to know how the system is going to react exactly.

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T-800 upmap for Arrow pipes

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