V4 owners - 15w50 oil reports with testing - Motul 300v / Redline Power Sports / Motul 7100 - Part 1

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Out of curiosity, what do you use in your car? @VYRUS same question. I have a F-150 and am right at 3K since my last oil change.
In the Summer, I use Maxima Extra 10W/60 in my gas engine car's & trucks. I live in Northern California where the Summer ambient temperatures are frequently over 100F. In the Winter, I use Maxima Extra 5W/40. I change the oil every 3000 miles or before the start of the Summer or Winter. If I'm towing my motorcycle trailer through the mountains in the Summer, I use Red Line 20W/60 motorcycle oil. In California we have a major stretch of highway called the Grapevine. It goes over the mountains north of LA. It's about 40 miles. In August, it's not uncommon for the ambient temperature to be 115F at the northern base of the Grapevine. It's a steep climb up and over the mountains & into LA. People who've never driven these types of roads can't believe anyone would use 20W/60 oil in an engine. On the other hand, I can't believe anyone would use 0W/16 in a turbocharged truck towing up the Grapevine in August. I always use motorcycle oil in my gas engine cars & trucks. Motorcycle oil is generally higher quality than automotive oils. Turbocharged engines are VERY hard on their oil. If you have a Diesel pick-up, their oils are a totally different subject & much more complicated. However, there's one motorcycle oil that also works great in a turbocharged diesel with a DPF. Red Line 10W/50 Power Sport is also rated for diesel engines. If you think motorcycle owners stress over their oil, Diesel owners are way worse. Lots of motorcycle owner's also own Sprinter BlueTec diesels. I don't want to get into the diesel oil discussion, it will never end. But, Red Line 10W/50 Power Sport is the very best oil you can put in a diesel. This does not apply to any other motorcycle oil or other Red Line Power Sport oils. Red Line 10W/50 Power Sports is the only oil you can use in everything except a two stroke engine. It has the JASO approval for a wet clutch, & the API "CF" approval for a diesel.
"hurc" asked about Break-in oil. NEVER use 300V or any other synthetic oil to break-in a new engine. Break-in oils are Mineral based oil with high levels of zinc. If you have a dry clutch, you have lots of choices. Wet clutches need oil with the JASO approval. You also want to get the original factory oil out of a new engine ASAP. Driven BR40 10W/40 Break-in oil is an excellent Break-in oil for a wet or dry clutch. Change the oil & filter 2 or 3 times within the first 500 miles. Then use whichever oil you've decided to use for your type of riding.
 

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Thank you @VYRUS for sharing your knowledge! How northern CA? Redding area? I’m in Southern Oregon, similar summer conditions ;)

The v4R I’m getting is just under 1000 miles and I will change the oil as soon as I get it. Do you recommend running the Driven 10w40 break in oil with this mileage? From comments in this thread it sounds like some consider the break in period to be up to the first 2500 miles?

If 1000 miles is past break in, would it be appropriate to run the Maxima Extra 10w60 now? Thank you!
 
Thank you @VYRUS for sharing your knowledge! How northern CA? Redding area? I’m in Southern Oregon, similar summer conditions ;)

The v4R I’m getting is just under 1000 miles and I will change the oil as soon as I get it. Do you recommend running the Driven 10w40 break in oil with this mileage? From comments in this thread it sounds like some consider the break in period to be up to the first 2500 miles?

If 1000 miles is past break in, would it be appropriate to run the Maxima Extra 10w60 now? Thank you!
The break-in on your engine is pretty much over. The most important part of the break-in is within the first 50 miles. By 500 miles it’s 98% finished. You could change the oil now and run the Driven BR40 as a sort of flush for 50 to 100 miles, but that’s just to give you some piece of mind. Then go to the Maxima. The best thing you can do now is to order a super magnet from eBay and stick it onto your oil filter. Switch the magnet to each new oil filter. The magnet will trap the tiny iron particles the filter can’t stop. When you look at a used oil report, “iron” is the most important number. It tells you if something really bad is happening. Like the camshaft wear problems many companies are experiencing. The first signs of camshaft wear will show up in the “iron” number. A good engine will show “iron” at between 3 and 5. If the cams are in trouble, you’ll see “iron” at 15 and higher. I’ve seen oil test with “iron” in the 90s and they still seem to run okay. But the end is coming.
If you’re really interested in what’s going on in your engine, a super magnet on the oil filter will trap the “iron” where it was attached on the filter. You can buy metal oil filter cutting tools for $30 on Amazon. Cut your old filter open and see how much metal dust is stuck where the magnet was attached. Don’t use a hacksaw, you’ll have metal everywhere. If your engine has a paper oil filter insert, you can still open it up and run the magnet around the filter and see what it picks up.
When these same camshaft, timing chain, and sprocket failures first appeared in car engines, manufacturers blamed the same stuff motorcycle manufacturers are blaming now. The failures were actually caused by the EPA emission oil regulations; i.e. lower zinc / ZDDP in automotive oils. It took longer for the EPA to really regulate motorcycle engines and reduce the zinc in motorcycle oil. Now motorcycles are having the same failures car engines had in the late 90s and throughout the 2000s. Automakers still have these same failures after hardening the cams, chains and sprockets. The EPA keeps insisting on higher fuel economy, and that results in lower oil viscosity. Even though they keep making the engines more robust, the oil keeps getting worse. The EPA and the manufacturers don’t want you driving around for 10 or 12 years with outdated emissions systems. They want your car off the road and in the junkyard. What better way to do that, than with inferior lubrication.
KTM Is in financial trouble, in large part due to the repetitional damage caused by oil related engine failures. KTM and other manufacturers know these failures are caused by the EPA oil. They are so hand tied by the EPA regulations that they’re now close to bankruptcy.
 
Very nice report.
Thanks
Just out of curiosity, anybody has deeply tested the Bardhal XT4R C60 ?
I run it on the Barni V4R SBK, changing it quite often ( about every 300 km ).
So far, engine is flawless and some superficial inspection of the piston heads, cammes etc, look great.
 
Very nice report.
Thanks
Just out of curiosity, anybody has deeply tested the Bardhal XT4R C60 ?
I run it on the Barni V4R SBK, changing it quite often ( about every 300 km ).
So far, engine is flawless and some superficial inspection of the piston heads, cammes etc, look great.
Bardahl Technical Data Sheet says:
Entirely formulated with PAO + Synthetic esters:
• The particular composition obtained from the exclusive combination of polyalphaolefins (PAO) and esters, allows the formulations to achieve superior performance in terms of resistance to thermal decay by oxidation and evaporation, fluidity at low temperatures and lubricating power.

But, Bardahl’s 10W/60 Safety Data Sheet says:
  • Lubricating oils (petroleum), C20-50%, hydro treated neutral oil-base
  • Distillates (petroleum), hydro treated heavy paraffinic
  • Lubricating oils (petroleum), C15-30%, hydro treated neutral oil-base. (This is ordinary base motor oil that you’ll find in every one of hundreds of oils around the world. However, you may also find these same ingredients in 300V and other top tier lubricants. The difference is those top tier oils also list other exotic chemicals. If you don’t see additional chemicals, it’s just ordinary motor oil. You never see these ingredients listed in Red Line Power Sport or Maxima Extra. Motul 300V does list these ingredients, but in addition to other chemicals. This is one reason I personally don’t consider 300V in quite the same league as the Red Line or Maxima Extra.)

What Bardahl says in their advertisement, doesn’t jive with the Safety Data Sheet they’re legally required to file with OHSA. Which one of their statements do you believe?

Another example, Maxima Extra 10W/60 Safety Data Sheet says:
  • Synthetic Base Oils 80-90% Proprietary
  • Multifunctional Additive Mixture 10-20% Mixture
  • Zinc alkyldithiophosphate <5% Proprietary
  • Organosulfur-Phosphorus Compound
For what it’s worth, the Ducati 15W/50 factory oil that comes in your engine Safety Data Sheet says:

  • A blend of severely hydrotreated slack wax and additives. Highly refined mineral oil. (Whenever you see “mineral oil”, that means it is NOT the ester synthetic oil like 300V, Red Line Power Sport, or Maxima Extra.)
 
interesting.
So you deduce that the XT4R is not ester?
This would make a big difference
 
My blackstone results with 300v. 500miles only. Note it has sheared down to a 40 weight already. I firmly believe now that the two engines I popped were related to 2500 mile intervals using this race oil!
 

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My blackstone results with 300v. 500miles only. Note it has sheared down to a 40 weight already. I firmly believe now that the two engines I popped were related to 2500 mile intervals using this race oil!
Yeah i had the same results for 300v sheering down to a 40w fast , however i notice its pretty low for Zinc and Phos in this 300v sample. This wasnt the v2 version was it?
 
Yeah i had the same results for 300v sheering down to a 40w fast , however i notice its pretty low for Zinc and Phos in this 300v sample. This wasnt the v2 version was it?
No it wasn’t.

And not sure we can compare blackstone to speed one. But I’m going to assume that Blackstone is precise.

So should give me good data for a trend


I’m not gonna run 300v anymore. At this sample I went to redline. Ran another 300mi and dumped again, then refilled with more redline. Felt like I needed two flushes to get it all. The green was obviously still there.

I plan to sample the red line at Virgin, 500 then 1000 and 1500 miles street.


Jag
 
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No it wasn’t.

And not sure we can compare blackstone to speed one. But I’m going to assume that Blackstone is precise.

So should give me good data for a trend


I’m not gonna run 300v anymore. At this sample I went to redline. Ran another 300mi and dumped again, then refilled with more redline. Felt like I needed two flushes to get it all. The green was obviously still there.

I plan to sample the red line at Virgin, 500 then 1000 and 1500 miles street.


Jag
I have both blackstone and speediagnostics, both virgin samples tested of all 3 oils 300v , 7100 & redline . My BS shows it has lot higher zddp than what you have shown. Also the speediagnostics reports are more precise than the blackstone samples.

Blackstone can only test up to 8 micron , speediagnostics up to 5 micron.

The discrepancy in our tests proves this , also there’s a rumor that because blackstone is such a small in house shop they don’t clean their machines as throughly as the lab speediagnostics uses. F1 teams also use the same lab that speediag does . Another example is redline states it has 2000 phos / 2200 zinc on their in house reports and states the same on the website . Blackstone shows a different story . Speediagnostics was on the money with the numbers .

I’ve used blackstone for years , recently made the switch over after doing the comparisons my self.

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I am looking forward to seeing your new results 👍🏻
I'll have the new data up as soon as it warms up. 30F and dropping here in NYC. Ill ether add to this thread or start a new one. Redline PS 15/50 and Maxima Extra 15/50 on the used analysis testing list. As of now all i can say about the two , is that Redline remained a lot cooler on the bearing stress tests over the Maxima, Wear mark scar size were around the same for both with maxima a hair better , I have a feeling Redline wont degrade and stay true 50w for longevity. RL Seems more durable , but the used oil reports of the two will tell the whole story , Stay tuned!
 
Very informative thanks. I'm a big fan of red line so it's good to see actual results. Ducati has changed the metallurgy again with the V4 cams and rockers. It will be interesting to see if they've finally resolved the rocker issues. From a longevity standpoint the valvetrains have been the biggest problem on the earlier superbikes. Because of the heat involved I prefer to use alnico magnets (tolerant to around 500F) around the head oil return holes and in the filter.
 
My blackstone results with 300v. 500miles only. Note it has sheared down to a 40 weight already. I firmly believe now that the two engines I popped were related to 2500 mile intervals using this race oil!
I don't know how Blackstone can say this oil sample looks good? The Iron level is not good. 17ppm in a 500 mile oil sample is terrible. The aluminum numbers are equally bad. I don't know how much everyone has been paying attention, but KTM, BMW, Porsche & others are having serious oil related engine failures due to high camshaft & timing chain wear. Your iron number is coming from the camshafts & timing chain. I have a problem with all of these YouTubers beating up on manufactures because of their engine failures. I know the manufacture tells them to use their special approved oil & that they can go 6 or 7 thousand miles between oil changes. People who own highly stressed exotic engines need to get this through the heads. The manufactures hands are tied by the EPA. In order to achieve the test results for the emissions systems, they have to tell owners what you see in the Owner's Manual. They can't even give owners the "wink wink" & hint they should use different oil & different service intervals. Those days are gone. If you want to drive these types of high performance engines, you need to understand oil, or get used to arguing with Lawyers & Dealers. You can't even trust the oil analyst. It's good that a few of you guys are trying to legitimately figure this out. You'll begin to notice that it seems like everyone is working against you. If you tried to read Petroleum & Chemical Engineering reports, you would notice they dance around & rarely say anything in plain English. One example I read was 186 pages on soot in diesel oil. Talk about mind numbing. There's hundreds of these technical reports & you'll still need too read between the lines. None of these authors want to jeopardize their carriers pointing out things that are counter to the EPA viewpoint. Even if you could talk to an experienced Ducati or Porsche mechanic, they don't really know very much about oil. They're busy making a living fixing broken stuff. They don't have time to study oil technical data sheets. They manufacture recommends one oil, & they don't have time to argue about it. There are basic things that should be included in every oil's Technical Data Sheet / Material Data Sheet, but they're omitted by most oil companies. If oil companies actually reported this test data, consumers could figure oil which is the best oil.
You commented that 300V sheered down, but you had to make a real effort to figure that out. You should have been able to see that in 300V's technical data. But oil companies hide it. Here's what's the most important & what you should see in the technical data report.
NOACK Volatility: Oil is like water. If you get oil hot enough, it turns into steam. The test is to heat the oil to 450F & measure the volume of steam. The maximum the EPA allows is 13.5% in one hour. This oil steam gets sucked into the crankcase ventilation system. It finally turns into the sludge you see building up over time. The very best oil's have a NOACK value of 3.7%. 5% or 6% is considered pretty good. As the oil vapor leaves the oil, the oil in your crank case gets thicker. This is sludge. Engines with high fuel dilution don't notice the oil becoming sludge, because fuel dilutes the oil. This is even worse. This is why you change the oil frequently. In order to make an oil with low NOACK, it takes real quality. A low NOACK value is a major indicator of a good oil.
Viscosity Index (IV): This number tells you how well the oil maintains & stays within its stated viscosity. The higher the number the better the oil. Real good oils have a VI of 170 to 180. The best I've seen is 245, & that's the special 300V for the Honda Moto GP replica. This oil I $60 per quart. Assuming motorcycles are ridden in warm weather, you want oil with a higher viscosity to protect the engine. Most high performance motorcycles need 10W/60, or 15W/50. If you ride in hot weather over 90F, 20W/60 is a good choice. Motorcycles are compact with small radiators & oil coolers. The engines don't hold much oil, & they're often surrounded by a fairing that traps the heat. 0w/30 oils are for maximum horse power when racing. They are not meant for long engine life.
High Temperature High Sheer (HTHS): This is the film strength oil the oil. The EPA mandated fuel efficient oils have a HTHS of 2.8. The higher the HTHS, the better the oil. Good oils have a HTHS above 5. The best I've seen is Red Line 20W/60 Power Sports, 6.8. Viscosity plays a major roll in increasing the HTHS.
Zinc (ZDDP): Zinc slowly builds up the metal surfaces in your engine. Zinc is the last line of defense when things get really hot & the rest of the lubrication has been lost. Zinc prevents micro welding of the metal surfaces. Obviously you can get an engine so hot the metal galls itself together & the engine locks up. The thicker the zinc barrier, the more stress the engine can withstand. This is why it's important to lay down a good layer of zinc in a new engine as quickly as you can. Break-in oils have very high levels of zinc to do just that. Practically no new engines come with high zinc Break-in oil from the factory. The EPA says zinc in the oil contaminates the catalytic converter & reduces its ability to reduce emissions. I understand the principal, but I've never seen high zinc oils contaminate the catalyst. Even if it did, I would much rather deal with a bad catalytic converter than a bad crankshaft. The EPA oils have about 800ppm of zinc. The best high performance oils have over twice as much zinc. If you can find the oil's zinc content, it will tell you if you have an oil that protects the engine or the emissions system. Never add zinc to your oil. It upsets the chemical balance. Buy oil already made with high zinc.
Ester: Ester is a man made chemical type of oil. Ester synthetic oils are not based off of conventional petroleum oil that's pumped out of the ground. Man made ester chemicals can withstand much higher temperatures before the molecules brake apart. Ester also flows at extremely cold temperatures. Ester does one other really cool thing. Ester chemicals are attracted to metal. They don't completely drain off the metal surfaces when you shut the engine off. The next time you start the engine, there's a thin coating of oil on all the internal parts. This means less wear over the life of the engine.
Flash point: This is the temperature the oil vaporizes. If the engine has a turbocharger, they get very hot when you shut the engine off. The turbo's can get red hot when climbing a mountain in hot weather. If you shut the engine off at the end of your record breaking run up Pike's Peak, the oil in the turbo can vaporize. Obviously the higher the Flash Point, the better the oil. The highest I've seen is 245C.
You're never going to find the highest values in one oil. It's always a compromise.
One last thing I haven't talked about. Traditional Marvel Mystery oil (MMO) in your fuel. Most people use pump gas. It has 10% ethanol. Ethanol attracts moisture from the ambient air. When you let your bike set with fuel in the tank, moisture will eventually damage your fuel pump & the other metal parts in the fuel system. MMO in the fuel also lubricates & protects the injectors. MMO is high detergent & helps keep the varnish cleaned off the fuel system.
Super Magnets on a metal oil filter, or epoxied on the cover of a cartridge oil filter. Super magnets are an easy way to remove the iron powder that's smaller than the oil filter can trap. If you stuck a super magnet somewhere on the oil filter, the 17ppm iron in the 300V test would go to zero.
There's no getting around frequent oil changes. If all of these guys complaining on YouTube changed even the factory oil every 2000 miles, they wouldn't have anything to complain about on YouTube. I wonder how many of those guys will still be riding in 40 years? Will it be their wife who makes them quit, or the first time they see their femur sticking out of the side of their leg?
 
I don't know how Blackstone can say this oil sample looks good? The Iron level is not good. 17ppm in a 500 mile oil sample is terrible. The aluminum numbers are equally bad. I don't know how much everyone has been paying attention, but KTM, BMW, Porsche & others are having serious oil related engine failures due to high camshaft & timing chain wear. Your iron number is coming from the camshafts & timing chain. I have a problem with all of these YouTubers beating up on manufactures because of their engine failures. I know the manufacture tells them to use their special approved oil & that they can go 6 or 7 thousand miles between oil changes. People who own highly stressed exotic engines need to get this through the heads. The manufactures hands are tied by the EPA. In order to achieve the test results for the emissions systems, they have to tell owners what you see in the Owner's Manual. They can't even give owners the "wink wink" & hint they should use different oil & different service intervals. Those days are gone. If you want to drive these types of high performance engines, you need to understand oil, or get used to arguing with Lawyers & Dealers. You can't even trust the oil analyst. It's good that a few of you guys are trying to legitimately figure this out. You'll begin to notice that it seems like everyone is working against you. If you tried to read Petroleum & Chemical Engineering reports, you would notice they dance around & rarely say anything in plain English. One example I read was 186 pages on soot in diesel oil. Talk about mind numbing. There's hundreds of these technical reports & you'll still need too read between the lines. None of these authors want to jeopardize their carriers pointing out things that are counter to the EPA viewpoint. Even if you could talk to an experienced Ducati or Porsche mechanic, they don't really know very much about oil. They're busy making a living fixing broken stuff. They don't have time to study oil technical data sheets. They manufacture recommends one oil, & they don't have time to argue about it. There are basic things that should be included in every oil's Technical Data Sheet / Material Data Sheet, but they're omitted by most oil companies. If oil companies actually reported this test data, consumers could figure oil which is the best oil.
You commented that 300V sheered down, but you had to make a real effort to figure that out. You should have been able to see that in 300V's technical data. But oil companies hide it. Here's what's the most important & what you should see in the technical data report.
NOACK Volatility: Oil is like water. If you get oil hot enough, it turns into steam. The test is to heat the oil to 450F & measure the volume of steam. The maximum the EPA allows is 13.5% in one hour. This oil steam gets sucked into the crankcase ventilation system. It finally turns into the sludge you see building up over time. The very best oil's have a NOACK value of 3.7%. 5% or 6% is considered pretty good. As the oil vapor leaves the oil, the oil in your crank case gets thicker. This is sludge. Engines with high fuel dilution don't notice the oil becoming sludge, because fuel dilutes the oil. This is even worse. This is why you change the oil frequently. In order to make an oil with low NOACK, it takes real quality. A low NOACK value is a major indicator of a good oil.
Viscosity Index (IV): This number tells you how well the oil maintains & stays within its stated viscosity. The higher the number the better the oil. Real good oils have a VI of 170 to 180. The best I've seen is 245, & that's the special 300V for the Honda Moto GP replica. This oil I $60 per quart. Assuming motorcycles are ridden in warm weather, you want oil with a higher viscosity to protect the engine. Most high performance motorcycles need 10W/60, or 15W/50. If you ride in hot weather over 90F, 20W/60 is a good choice. Motorcycles are compact with small radiators & oil coolers. The engines don't hold much oil, & they're often surrounded by a fairing that traps the heat. 0w/30 oils are for maximum horse power when racing. They are not meant for long engine life.
High Temperature High Sheer (HTHS): This is the film strength oil the oil. The EPA mandated fuel efficient oils have a HTHS of 2.8. The higher the HTHS, the better the oil. Good oils have a HTHS above 5. The best I've seen is Red Line 20W/60 Power Sports, 6.8. Viscosity plays a major roll in increasing the HTHS.
Zinc (ZDDP): Zinc slowly builds up the metal surfaces in your engine. Zinc is the last line of defense when things get really hot & the rest of the lubrication has been lost. Zinc prevents micro welding of the metal surfaces. Obviously you can get an engine so hot the metal galls itself together & the engine locks up. The thicker the zinc barrier, the more stress the engine can withstand. This is why it's important to lay down a good layer of zinc in a new engine as quickly as you can. Break-in oils have very high levels of zinc to do just that. Practically no new engines come with high zinc Break-in oil from the factory. The EPA says zinc in the oil contaminates the catalytic converter & reduces its ability to reduce emissions. I understand the principal, but I've never seen high zinc oils contaminate the catalyst. Even if it did, I would much rather deal with a bad catalytic converter than a bad crankshaft. The EPA oils have about 800ppm of zinc. The best high performance oils have over twice as much zinc. If you can find the oil's zinc content, it will tell you if you have an oil that protects the engine or the emissions system. Never add zinc to your oil. It upsets the chemical balance. Buy oil already made with high zinc.
Everything said here is the bible to oils . I live by EXACTLY what he is saying. Thats why i went through my testing to find out which oil can withstand the torture the Desmosedici Stradale motor puts it through.

Forget what manufactures recommend for ANY ENGINE. I've always said if its EPA rated , its not to protect your engine its to protect the "earth", and i could give a F*ck less about my engines emissions on the planet honestly. There's way bigger polluting factors to this world then a 1.1L motorcycle engine , my $ is in this machine. I want to last therefore i do not stick with their BS. ALL my fluids get changed. Transmission , differential , transfer cases even coolant to a 70/30 custom mix as ill never see below 7F temps. All this makes my engines last and run cooler and wear way less.

I also aim to up the oil weight as many times its for fuel economy, example my 21' escalade calls for water thin 0/20 oil.... when its an LS based engine and historically they always called for 5/30 or even 5/40... why did they use 0/20 ? because it gave them 2mpg on their vehicle stickers which the EPA loves & the engine hates. Look how many L87 have faulty lifters . Yes the lifter is .... but did anyone stop to think maybe thin oil heating up the parts with little to no protection had a factor in it as well?

always look for the following

- High HTHS ---this will gauge how strong the oil reacts under EXTREME HIGH TEMP & PRESSURE which is your main bearings / Piston rings

- High ZDDP ---This is your anti wear armor line of defense for metal on metal contact

- ESTER & mPAO base oils --- This is base quality of the oils , exactly as @VYRUS mentioned , coldstart protection and ease of flow.

- CST 40c ---this is how the oil viscosity reacts on a cold motor, lower # is better

- CST 100c --- this is how the oil viscosity reacts on a warmed up motor . Higher is better... most importantly how long does the oil remain at its virgin CST100 value after its had many heat cycles & used up after 1k miles , example 300v sheers this number down very very fast within 500 miles its done being a 50w.

- Calcium & Magnesium - this is what cleans your motor , your detergents. Need these in the motor to maintain cleanliness. These also battle AGAINST ZDDP which is a bad thing but also good thing because you don't want it to build up multiple layers on its own over time with nothing to battle against it IMO . Think of it as a fresh layer of ZDDP every time you change your oil since calcium and magnesium naturally degrades the ZDDP over time.

Great write up @VYRUS . More people should be aware of all of this.
 
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