1199 R Superleggera

Stw said:

Ok..My point about the SL is this....its not worth a $46000 premium over a base

Ohlins FGRT $2800
TTX du930 $1500
Install/Set up $500
Ohlins Steering damper $350
Power commander $300
Tune $1000
DP Carbon $3300
Akra pipe $3450
RearsetS $1200
Race Seat $250

This adds up to $14650 (Very approx) ..add a brand new base at $19000 ... $33650.... Don't get me wrong.... I am not proposing to do this...But my point is that its possible..for half the price to make a bike that too all intents and purposes is the equal of the SL...For half the price... If the specs of the SL was the R ..then it makes more sense..Retail at $30000... Great deal.... But...To me... totally subjectively...its not worth it....

Click to expand...

i get your point but i don't think you can create this bike for $35k. Ducati have managed to knock 23lbs off the 1199R weight with the frame now in sand-cast magnesium alloy and the rear sub frame in carbon fibre, also the body work will be at least $6k from Ducati. The front forks are updated but unsure of cost plus there is a better electronics system and some engine upgrades along with a lot of other things i have probably forgotten to mention.

Kobe created one of the Ultimate 1199 bikes so i;m sure he could chime in and let people know the real world costs of actually trying to develop one of these bikes as essentially Ducati are already pushing the limits so extra power/weight gains going forward tend to cost a serious amount of $$$.

But as we say value is in the eye of the beholder and while i don't thing it's tremendous value i certainly see the appeal and I would consider one.

Stw said:

Ok..My point about the SL is this....its not worth a $46000 premium over a base

Ohlins FGRT $2800
TTX du930 $1500
Install/Set up $500
Ohlins Steering damper $350
Power commander $300
Tune $1000
DP Carbon $3300
Akra pipe $3450
RearsetS $1200
Race Seat $250

This adds up to $14650 (Very approx) ..add a brand new base at $19000 ... $33650.... Don't get me wrong.... I am not proposing to do this...But my point is that its possible..for half the price to make a bike that too all intents and purposes is the equal of the SL...For half the price... If the specs of the SL was the R ..then it makes more sense..Retail at $30000... Great deal.... But...To me... totally subjectively...its not worth it....

Click to expand...

You are leaving out the single most expensive piece if you want to build one yourself... Magnesium frame ~$30k-50k, plus a few hundred thousand in engineering design and testing behind that, which has to be recouped with only 500 units.

You will not logically be able to make a value argument for this bike, but if you try to, I think you are missing the point. If you based it on performance/dollar you'd always buy cars like Nissan GTRs, Corvetter ZR1s, mustang GT500s over cars that are 3x the price like Lambos, Aston Martins, Ferraris, etc. You could buy a Ultima GTR for ~$60k that out performs a $500k Zonda, yet people still buy the Zonda. The SL will sell out, just like the Ferrari Enzo cars of the world always sell out, debating whether or not they are "worth it" will just end in frustration IMO

transdesigner said:

You are leaving out the single most expensive piece if you want to build one yourself... Magnesium frame ~$30k-50k, plus a few hundred thousand in engineering design and testing behind that, which has to be recouped with only 500 units.

You will not logically be able to make a value argument for this bike, but if you try to, I think you are missing the point. If you based it on performance/dollar you'd always buy cars like Nissan GTRs, Corvetter ZR1s, mustang GT500sover cars that are 3x the price like Lambos, Aston Martins, Ferraris, etc. You could buy a Ultima GTR for ~$60k that out performs a $500k Zonda, yet people still buy the Zonda. The SL will sell out, just like the Ferrari Enzo cars of the world always sell out, debating whether or not they are "worth it" will just end in frustration IMO

Click to expand...

No doubt...

Stw said:

Ok..My point about the SL is this....its not worth a $46000 premium over a base

Ohlins FGRT $2800
TTX du930 $1500
Install/Set up $500
Ohlins Steering damper $350
Power commander $300
Tune $1000
DP Carbon $3300
Akra pipe $3450
RearsetS $1200
Race Seat $250

This adds up to $14650 (Very approx) ..add a brand new base at $19000 ... $33650.... Don't get me wrong.... I am not proposing to do this...But my point is that its possible..for half the price to make a bike that too all intents and purposes is the equal of the SL...For half the price... If the specs of the SL was the R ..then it makes more sense..Retail at $30000... Great deal.... But...To me... totally subjectively...its not worth it....

Click to expand...

You forgot to add labor, factory warranty and the price of "perceived" exclusivity.
Not to mention the cost of the fairings and subframes.

If you go the aftermarket route, generally speaking the "value" of the bike goes down, although it may be a technically better bike. But get a limited edition factory bike and..... you know where I'm going.

littlejohn said:

You forgot to add labor, factory warranty and the price of "perceived" exclusivity.
Not to mention the cost of the fairings and subframes.

Click to expand...

It wasn't meant to be exhaustive... but more of an exemplar....

Stw said:

It wasn't meant to be exhaustive... but more of an exemplar....

Click to expand...

True.. but your figures fell way short, even for a costing exercise

Personally.. I agree with you.. I don't really see the value in the SL. The point of diminishing returns started at the S for me ..
I would only get an SL for my occasional run to starbucks

littlejohn said:

.
I would only get an SL for my occasional run to starbucks

Click to expand...

...

transdesigner said:

You will not logically be able to make a value argument for this bike, but if you try to, I think you are missing the point. If you based it on performance/dollar you'd always buy cars like Nissan GTRs, Corvetter ZR1s, mustang GT500s over cars that are 3x the price like Lambos, Aston Martins, Ferraris, etc. You could buy a Ultima GTR for ~$60k that out performs a $500k Zonda, yet people still buy the Zonda. The SL will sell out, just like the Ferrari Enzo cars of the world always sell out, debating whether or not they are "worth it" will just end in frustration IMO

Click to expand...

I tend to disagree. Due to the subjective nature of an item's worth, value, when independent of all other variables, can be especially difficult to pinpoint through calculated methods. However, by comparing successor feature enhancements of previous products that have been tested on the market with analyses of public response to those products/enhancements, we can essentially triangulate projected value of future products. I do agree that purchasing based on this alone isn't necessarily in line with the romanticized perception of why a machine such as the SL should be purchased, but the question of an item's value certainly does warrant thought and discussion when a purchase is being contemplated - particularly so for those looking at this model as an item to be preserved and collected (gasp"¦I know, I know, merely stating the possibility of that occurring incites burning of eyes and gnashing of teeth).

SL Items

I read the list above but didn't see:

RS two ring slipper pistons;
RS racing piston rings;
SL thinner head gasket (thinner than R);
Internally balanced and knife edged RS crank;
Tungsten heavy metal (in lieu of Mallory) for balancing;
upgraded "blue" rod and crank bearings;
titanium exhaust valves (in lieu of inconel steel in R);
revised oil pump from RS;
spare set of race bodywork (painted)
SL carbon fiber OEM bodywork;
Magnesium airbox (in lieu of the OEM aluminum unit)
Titanium Ohlins rear shock spring;
Magnesium "trident" Marchesini wheels;
carbon fiber monoque subframe;

Did I forget anything else?

George Villar said:

I read the list above but didn't see:

RS two ring slipper pistons;
RS racing piston rings;
SL thinner head gasket (thinner than R);
Internally balanced and knife edged RS crank;
Tungsten heavy metal (in lieu of Mallory) for balancing;
upgraded "blue" rod and crank bearings;
titanium exhaust valves (in lieu of inconel steel in R);
revised oil pump from RS;
spare set of race bodywork (painted)
SL carbon fiber OEM bodywork;
Magnesium airbox (in lieu of the OEM aluminum unit)
Titanium Ohlins rear shock spring;
Magnesium "trident" Marchesini wheels;
carbon fiber monoque subframe;

Did I forget anything else?

Click to expand...

2 Titanium exhaust systems - road and track Akras
Sexy paint scheme
lightened/upgraded factory rearsets
Ti hardware throughout
Wheelie control / upgraded electronics

I think the list is very extensive.

You are all missing my point...Oh well....

Duck41 said:

I tend to disagree. Due to the subjective nature of an item's worth, value, when independent of all other variables, can be especially difficult to pinpoint through calculated methods. However, by comparing successor feature enhancements of previous products that have been tested on the market with analyses of public response to those products/enhancements, we can essentially triangulate projected value of future products. I do agree that purchasing based on this alone isn't necessarily in line with the romanticized perception of why a machine such as the SL should be purchased, but the question of an item's value certainly does warrant thought and discussion when a purchase is being contemplated - particularly so for those looking at this model as an item to be preserved and collected (gasp"¦I know, I know, merely stating the possibility of that occurring incites burning of eyes and gnashing of teeth).

Click to expand...

I actually don't think we disagree, because I do agree with what you're saying. My point was more on a pure performance/dollar and hardware cost basis. When you add in other factors like pedigree, prestige, luxury, etc. then it starts to make sense like you're saying. Even then though, some of these things are somewhat intangible. At my company we had a Ford Taurus SHO disassebled next to an Audi S4. If you try to focus on tangible reasons why the S4 is $25k (the cost of a whole other car) more than the SHO, it becomes difficult... The tangibles are they both are AWD, forced induction... the Ford is bigger, has more hp, and is actually better quality. The audi has a few more luxury features, but were does the extra $25,000 come from? The prestige, the better handling, the looks, the "image". And I agree with you on a high level comparison if you compare the Audi to a BMW 3.35is or the like, the price seems to make perfect sense. But when you see the parts disassembled on tables next to the Ford, you could be left scratching your head.

littlejohn said:

You forgot to add labor, factory warranty and the price of "perceived" exclusivity.
Not to mention the cost of the fairings and subframes.

If you go the aftermarket route, generally speaking the "value" of the bike goes down, although it may be a technically better bike. But get a limited edition factory bike and..... you know where I'm going.

Click to expand...

Not sure where the perceived bit comes from. I would say owning one of the limited 500 counts as exclusive in my dictionary.

bradp51 said:

Not sure where the perceived bit comes from. I would say owning one of the limited 500 counts as exclusive in my dictionary.

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Sure.. but if you were to ask my wife or any one of her friends. None of them could tell you why my S was only $36K and the SL is $65K. (or whatever it will be in AUD)
In fact I'm pretty sure that they'll all say the S was a better looking bike too. Outside of the colour scheme and decals, they'd think it's the same same.

Whereas pretty much everyone I know would know that an Audi R8 is something spesh.

Motorcycles are not a universally valuable commodity, they don't even come close to cars, let alone anything else.. If I took the Ducati decals off my bike, I doubt anyone in my office could tell the difference between my 1199 vs a red Honda CBR1000RR or a Red Ninja 1000

In my books, the word exclusivity implies something that is universally valuable and also rare (limited numbers).

Know what I mean jelly bean.

littlejohn said:

Sure.. but if you were to ask my wife or any one of her friends. None of them could tell you why my S was only $36K and the SL is $65K. (or whatever it will be in AUD)
In fact I'm pretty sure that they's all say the S was a better looking bike too.

Where as a kg of gold will or a $100 note will be worth the same no matter who you talk to.

Know what I mean jelly bean.

Click to expand...

Since a $100 note is just debt paper, and not backed by gold or silver standard since 1928, I would just take the GOLD!!!!!

George Villar said:

Since a $100 note is just debt paper, and not backed by gold or silver standard since 1928, I would just take the GOLD!!!!!

Click to expand...

hahaha... you're quick...

littlejohn said:

Sure.. but if you were to ask my wife or any one of her friends. None of them could tell you why my S was only $36K and the SL is $65K. (or whatever it will be in AUD)
In fact I'm pretty sure that they'll all say the S was a better looking bike too. Outside of the colour scheme and decals, they'd think it's the same same.

Whereas pretty much everyone I know would know that an Audi R8 is something spesh.

Motorcycles are not a universally valuable commodity, they don't even come close to cars, let alone anything else.. If I took the Ducati decals off my bike, I doubt anyone in my office could tell the difference between my 1199 vs a red Honda CBR1000RR or a Red Ninja 1000

In my books, the word exclusivity implies something that is universally valuable and also rare (limited numbers).

Know what I mean jelly bean.

Click to expand...

well its certainly got the limited numbers bit so that by definition makes it exclusive ( and I don,t think your wife will be around to ask )

Stw said:

Ok..My point about the SL is this....its not worth a $46000 premium over a base

Ohlins FGRT $2800
TTX du930 $1500
Install/Set up $500
Ohlins Steering damper $350
Power commander $300
Tune $1000
DP Carbon $3300
Akra pipe $3450
RearsetS $1200
Race Seat $250

This adds up to $14650 (Very approx) ..add a brand new base at $19000 ... $33650.... Don't get me wrong.... I am not proposing to do this...But my point is that its possible..for half the price to make a bike that too all intents and purposes is the equal of the SL...For half the price... If the specs of the SL was the R ..then it makes more sense..Retail at $30000... Great deal.... But...To me... totally subjectively...its not worth it....

Click to expand...

Just on what you have listed, for the SL the forks cost more, there isn't a "power Commander" and the electronics that maybe you are referring to are WELL beyond that cost. And, you cannot get the features of the new electronics in a PC... I have yet to get the part number, but the shock is also different. This isn't a MKII rear shock... The Akra is also more expensive as it is a different system and is actually a bit better than the one you can buy. Also is setup with Akras for street with competition mufflers in the crate.

You forget the Mag frame piece which was mentioned and of course the full carbon subframe and the carbon bodywork that is by no means like anything on the market. I've personally seen the OPP stuff which is beautiful, but this stuff as seen in person is so much better. The $3300 you have listed for the DP Carbon isn't covering the items like I mentioned. I can promise that subframe is close to $10k. Price a Carbon tail section and get back to me. This is going to be more...

The point is also that as mentioned by the other guys is the motor internals.

I understand your base of thought and it makes sense. It's just that the components on this thing are so upper shelf and VERY exotic and cost a lot.

You can take a VW Beetle and put on a Ferrari body kit. It still isn't a Ferrari... A lot cheaper, but not real.

Maybe a rough comparison...

One thing nobody seems to see is that this is also 8 lbs lighter than the WSBK when you remove the lights and mirrors... If that doesn't reach you, then move along...

But, I do see where people have the idea that they can just pimp out their S models and even Standards. But the components alone make this thing worth the price. That's before you even discuss how they take an already potent motor and make it even more bad ass...

Stw said:

Ok..My point about the SL is this....its not worth a $46000 premium over a base

Ohlins FGRT $2800
TTX du930 $1500
Install/Set up $500
Ohlins Steering damper $350
Power commander $300
Tune $1000
DP Carbon $3300
Akra pipe $3450
RearsetS $1200
Race Seat $250

This adds up to $14650 (Very approx) ..add a brand new base at $19000 ... $33650.... Don't get me wrong.... I am not proposing to do this...But my point is that its possible..for half the price to make a bike that too all intents and purposes is the equal of the SL...For half the price... If the specs of the SL was the R ..then it makes more sense..Retail at $30000... Great deal.... But...To me... totally subjectively...its not worth it....

Click to expand...

"there you go again"....a classic apples/oranges debate - at this point you need to own one - you'll be pleasantly surprised !

RD16RR said:

"there you go again"....a classic apples/oranges debate - at this point you need to own one - you'll be pleasantly surprised !

Click to expand...

I always said my views were entirely subjective.. but you miss my point I think..I am in no way saying that a modded base is the same as an SL....My point is that if you modify a base as listed... Admittedly I omitted the mag wheels... then take these 2 bikes to the track..then for 95+% of people they will be equivalent...... if you are a top 5% rider the SL will be quicker...but to most they will be the same.... this is my point...