1199R vs 1299S - Which is better?

Mutt1979 said:

Just put in an order for the 2015 R.

The engine is essentially from the SL, read the reviews, as a package it will be better than the 1299S. There's no way Ducati will allow a new upstart to unseat it's own flagship model!

HOWEVER, I have to concede I am a little apprehensive. If the 1199 R puts out 205 bhp, fast revving and fully tuned, how much can a 1299 put out with a full Akrapovic system and aftermarket fuelling/ignition module when it already has better torque and same power to start with?!?!

The other thing, if Ducati have to produce the 1199 R for Superbike purposes it doesn't rule out a 1299 R version in addition to it's range at some point in the future........

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You would have to think that you could get around 190-195 RWHP out of it with a good full system from Akrapovic and a decent tune and maybe 110 ft/lbs torque.. maybe more?

80shilling said:

You would have to think that you could get around 190-195 RWHP out of it with a good full system from Akrapovic and a decent tune and maybe 110 ft/lbs torque.. maybe more?

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Another reason i'm on the fence is i don't need more power, less weight yes but more power probably not. There are very few tracks where you can use that power so i tend to be quicker on the 675R.

80shilling said:

You would have to think that you could get around 190-195 RWHP out of it with a good full system from Akrapovic and a decent tune and maybe 110 ft/lbs torque.. maybe more?

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I really doubt that. Not just on an exhaust and tune. My money is on 180-185 SAE at the wheel.

BTrain5489 said:

I really doubt that. Not just on an exhaust and tune. My money is on 180-185 SAE at the wheel.

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I guess I'm used to the BMW S1000RR, where they are getting 175 to 185 RWHP out of stock bikes, with a claim of 195 crank hp... I would hope Ducati have learned from the initial 1199 Panigale and been a bit more conservative on their power claims. Either way, 180 ato185 RWHP is more than enough, the only place you can use it in reality is at the racetrack and even then, only certain racetracks I ride have enough long straights to really let a literbikes stretch its legs.

Cheers.

road ATL and PBIR are two tracks on the East Coast where you can let them loose. BUT, if you ever get a chance to ride Road America, I heard it a full blown liter bike track. I need to make it out there one summer.

80shilling said:

I guess I'm used to the BMW S1000RR, where they are getting 175 to 185 RWHP out of stock bikes, with a claim of 195 crank hp... I would hope Ducati have learned from the initial 1199 Panigale and been a bit more conservative on their power claims. Either way, 180 ato185 RWHP is more than enough, the only place you can use it in reality is at the racetrack and even then, only certain racetracks I ride have enough long straights to really let a literbikes stretch its legs.

Cheers.

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I don't really think there was much to learn from the 1199 in this respect. Ducati claimed 195, drop 10% for drivetrain losses, and you're looking at the high 160s/low 170s SAE at the wheel. That's pretty much what the dyno charts for stock bikes show. To me that sounds like Ducati's claimed number is in line with the reality.

At the end of the day it's like you said. If the new BMW is making 190 SAE and the Ducati is "only" making 180 SAE a lot of people don't live within range of a track where that difference really matters. Bigger is the fact that the Duc weighs around 30lbs less and is pretty easy (in terms of work and dollars) to get under 400lbs with fuel.

BTrain5489 said:

I don't really think there was much to learn from the 1199 in this respect. Ducati claimed 195, drop 10% for drivetrain losses, and you're looking at the high 160s/low 170s SAE at the wheel. That's pretty much what the dyno charts for stock bikes show. To me that sounds like Ducati's claimed number is in line with the reality.

At the end of the day it's like you said. If the new BMW is making 190 SAE and the Ducati is "only" making 180 SAE a lot of people don't live within range of a track where that difference really matters. Bigger is the fact that the Duc weighs around 30lbs less and is pretty easy (in terms of work and dollars) to get under 400lbs with fuel.

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Exactly.. The main reasons I am going with the 1299 vs. The new 2015 S1000RR are weight and the Ohlins. As amazing as the BMW is, you definitely feel the weight... When I swapped from my Triumph 675R to the BMW at the track, the BMW felt like a fat .........

And then, there's the fact that the Panigale has full Ohlins on it, as well as the lightweight wheels... If I went with the new BMW I would have to spend a ton on new wheels, new exhaust and another $4K on Ohlins. The stock suspension, while more than adequate for the street and for intermediate track day riders, get really nasty when you start to push it hard at the track and I had reached the point where the stock suspension was a limiting factor for me and was scaring the living hell out of me through some high speed corners. Even with respringing it and working for a couple of years to perfect the settings with Dave Moss, we reached a point where the suspension was doing all it could do.

I looked at all the new bikes coming out, except the Kawasaki H2 (too heavy) and the Panigale 1299 was the clear winner for me.

Cheers.

80shilling said:

Exactly.. The main reasons I am going with the 1299 vs. The new 2015 S1000RR are weight and the Ohlins. As amazing as the BMW is, you definitely feel the weight... When I swapped from my Triumph 675R to the BMW at the track, the BMW felt like a fat .........

And then, there's the fact that the Panigale has full Ohlins on it, as well as the lightweight wheels... If I went with the new BMW I would have to spend a ton on new wheels, new exhaust and another $4K on Ohlins. The stock suspension, while more than adequate for the street and for intermediate track day riders, get really nasty when you start to push it hard at the track and I had reached the point where the stock suspension was a limiting factor for me and was scaring the living hell out of me through some high speed corners. Even with respringing it and working for a couple of years to perfect the settings with Dave Moss, we reached a point where the suspension was doing all it could do.

I looked at all the new bikes coming out, except the Kawasaki H2 (too heavy) and the Panigale 1299 was the clear winner for me.

Cheers.

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In my experience, you want to start the journey with the lightest steed possible because it gets mighty expensive to drop weight.

having spent a dime or 2 on getting the 13R going, i think the 1299S as stock will be a very hard bike to beat by a 15R and will not be beaten by a stock 13R.. it s all to do with the power curve. to eek out the same numbers from a 13R it takes over 13K in upgrades on exhaust and engine mods ( 300MM SBK pipe, RS inlet cams, higher comp, optimised timing and mapping) . we know by now from the HP4 that the semi active suspension do work so the total electronics package (suspension + tracking ) on the 1299 is way ahead of the 13R's. the torque, lack of DIP, and handling are quit a leap forward.

then to the 15R.... a lot will depend on how good the stock AKRA is on the 15R... i hold no high hopes as it seems just the stock 12/13 development AKRA did and that can be bought as add on.. the F15 akra took the 300MM Termi as a base and is now being developed for some teams only at ludicrous pricing.. so to outgun the 1299 it will take a rider who can keep the rev range above the 8K mark where it will be brutal to ride as the 15R in fact its almost a 2012 RS engine and the lightweight parts ( especially the crank) will have it rev really fast. over the 13R, the 15R is a quantum leap.. don 't underestimate the small chassis changes added on the engine and electronics package...

on the track, the R should be faster ... on the road however, i d be very much surprised.. i am sure the 1299 will be much more ridable... torque torque torque...

the R has no flagship status , it is again what they always were : the WSBK homologation model. that s why it took till two weeks ago for them to come up with the final specs..

i have a 15R on order but already have 300MM termi waiting to go on... the 13R has all the engine mods and has now also the 15R chassis changes... i will know mid march what that brings..

The way I look at it is I probably , in reality exploit a little more than 50% of my bike's ability. And I track only. So if you buy a 15R or a 1299s that would bring me down to 48% usability.......lol. That is if the bike has more.

My 13R is an awesome machine. I ride against guys who race semi pro in a 600 class and they kill me. You just look more foolish losing on a better bike.

Keep what you got spend 10k getting one on one with pros and then decide.

) you ll never get one on one with pros .. They ride in a different reality.. )

The 15R has a lot in common with an SL in the engine compartment, however there are some differences between them (can't remember exact details tbh). If I were thinking about another SBK, I would buy a 15R. Whilst the 1299/S will be great bikes, the R is an R and it'll be awesome. Even 1 or 2 dealers I talk too would follow suit and get a 15R over any 1299/ S variant given the opportunity.

In the end of the day, its each to there own. You pays your money and you makes your choice of weapon. Having ridden an 08R (1098R) with a 1198.4CC engine, its hard to ride any other model. I tried an 1199 Tricolore and it wasn't for me, then again I do have expensive taste with the SL waiting in the wings. Im certain it'll be 1 hell of a weapon, so I'm told anyways.

For those who think that a 1299s is better than an R or a 15R, well you need to read the spec's more carefully. The 1299 & S are road bikes by comparison. The R's are track weapons, thats the difference. The 15R's are affectively detuned SL engines with slightly less expensive internals, so this is why I'd choose a 15R over a 1299S.

Anyway its all down to how deep your pocket are and what you want each model for. So simply enjoy whichever model you choose. They'll always be someone who is better than you that comes along in the end.

i think the outvalves in the 15R are not titanium... and the 1 ring piston ring is thicker than the SL engines pistonring... i guess for wear reasons... i see little to suggest that the R engine is 'detuned'...

kope999R said:

i think the outvalves in the 15R are not titanium... and the 1 ring piston ring is thicker than the SL engines pistonring... i guess for wear reasons... i see little to suggest that the R engine is 'detuned'...

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both intake & exhaust valves are titanium on the 2015R - here:


DUCATI PANIGALE R

Racing DNA
Created for the enjoyment of the most demanding enthusiasts, the Panigale R has been developed through the experience of Ducati in the World Superbike Championship. Fitted with a race-spec version of the Superquadro 1198 cm3 engine which meets displacement restrictions enabling it to compete in world and national Superbike and Superstock series, the Panigale R incorporates numerous features adapted specifically for the racetrack.

Titanium exhaust valves and 2 ring pistons have been added to the Superquadro engine, which was already fitted with titanium intake valves and rods. The pistons’ short-skirt design and the use of only 2 rings (compression ring and oil ring) reduce their overall mass and friction. Added to this is an extremely lightweight crankshaft, which is balanced thanks to tungsten inserts in the counterweights, and dedicated camshafts which allow the Panigale R to reach a maximum power level of 205 hp at 11,500 rpm and a torque level of 136.2 Nm at 10,250 rpm.

The Panigale R is also fitted with a clutch designed specifically for racing as well as a series of technical features that ensure maximum performance even after long distances, considering the strict regulations on power unit quotas in races reserved for modified production bikes.

Reinforcing the incredible level of performance of the electronic kit, the Panigale R has been fitted with the same elements used on the 1299 Panigale. It has, for instance, the Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) which commands the Cornering ABS, Ducati Wheelie Control (DWC), Ducati Traction Control (DTC), and Engine Brake Control (EBC), along with an automatic calibration system for tyre dimension and final transmission ratio. In addition, it includes the Ducati Data Analysis+ GPS (DDA+ GPS) system with lean angle visualization. The impressive provision of electronic devices also includes auxiliary buttons on the handlebars, as on race bikes, to regulate the DTC, DWC or EBC systems rapidly during track use.

The Panigale R is also fitted with Ohlins mechanical suspension and it has a steering angle of 24° and a swingarm pivot that can be adjusted among 4 positions. In addition it has dedicated steering offset geometry which advances the front axle by 5 mm compared to the 1299 Panigale and the 1299 Panigale S (with relative increment of the wheelbase distance from 1,437 mm to 1,442 mm), in order to further increase stability particularly in conditions of extreme track riding or racing.

The Panigale R is fitted with a number of parts made in carbon fibre and, thanks in part to the use of the approved Akrapovic titanium silencer and the extremely lightweight lithium ion battery, the Panigale R weighs 6 kg less than the 1199 Panigale R.


Panigale R
- Colour scheme
1. Special “R” colour scheme with black wheel rims
- Features
1198 cm ³ engine with Superbike derived components
New electronic kit with Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU)
Riding Modes (Race, Sport, Wet)
Ducati Safety Pack (Cornering ABS, DTC)
DWC, EBC, DQS up/down
Automatic calibration system of the tyre size and final drive ratio
Ohlins mechanical suspension (NIX30 fork, TTX36 shock absorber)
Lightweight forged aluminium wheels
DDA+ GPS and visualisation of lean angle
Li-ion battery
Auxiliary buttons to adjust DTC, DWC, EBC
Adjustable Ohlins steering damper
TFT instrumentation with indicator of lean angle
Akrapoviç homologated full titanium exhaust

thanks... info coming from the Ducati web site? tx

kope999R said:

thanks... info coming from the Ducati web site? tx

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it was part of press release package

kope999R said:

i think the outvalves in the 15R are not titanium... and the 1 ring piston ring is thicker than the SL engines pistonring... i guess for wear reasons... i see little to suggest that the R engine is 'detuned'...

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My apologies Kope 'detuned' was probably the wrong word here. Maybe I should have chosen a slightly different 'engine spec' to an SL.

Another important difference is that the '13-'14 Rs compression ratio is 12.5 to 1 and the '15 R is 13.2 to 1.

Has anyone looked at the tech specs of the SL and the new R? The new R puts out more HP and torque (It is slight, but more) than the SL. Note, the SL is 16lbs lighter, wet weight. DAMN!!!

Weight Reduction
Component Weight Saved (vs. 1199 Panigale R)
Carbon fibre fairings and assorted pieces -1.0Kg (-2.2lb)
Magnesium alloy Monoscocca mainframe -1.0Kg (-2.2lb)
Carbon fibre rear subframe -1.2Kg (-2.7lb)
Titanium exhaust system -2.5Kg (-5.5lb)
Forged and machined magnesium wheels -1.0Kg (-2.2lb)
Lithium-Ion battery -2.0Kg (-4.4lb)
Custom front fork and rear shock -1.4Kg (-3.1lb)
Superbike pistons -194g (-.4lb)
Crankshaft with tungsten counterweights -396g (-.9lb)
SBK chain and rear sprocket, and various carbon fibre parts, fasteners, and machined-from-billet components -1.3Kg (-2.9lb)

12Kg (26.5lb) overall (wet) weight savings vs. 1199 Panigale R

hi guys... this is interesting.... if i am not mistaken ( which i sure could be) i think to have seen some diff specs on the internal briefing sheets for the R engine... any idea from when this journo stuff is ? there was a time when it would be all ti valves and then no longer... we know that final specs were kept to the very very last minute in order to optimise what should and should not go in to suit the WSBK rules and still keep the buildcost of the R to a minimum...

in any case... the 15R must be one of the cheapest R's they ever built considering the specs ...