2025, totally new Panigale(?)

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baggerman said:
This seems backwards to me put the double-sided swingarm on the R's and leave the single sided on the road bikes. And design it with the ability to use either. Then if you want to run a double sided on your S you can. I like the SSA so what if it weighs a few more pounds. What's next valve springs...
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I agree. It would make more sense on the R and keep the aesthetics of the single-sided swing arm on the road bikes.

It’s such a Ducati thing that I’m surprised they would consider doing it, and especially considering what happened the last time they tried to do it…
 
KarlKani said:
Based on the article this will be the reveal for the all new V4 that was supposed to be shown this last fall and was pushed. Which means that R version would probably be the following season. So 25 wsbk would still be the current bike.

The reason to change something that works is that if you zoom out and analyze the time and money that has gone into making a SSSA package work it does not make sense. From a practically stand point a double sided swingarm eliminates SO MANY arbitrary factors to making a package work ie setup. Having eccentric hub alone btw gearing + swingarm is a rabbit hole for setup that has worked for 1 person exceptionally in the last 12 years. All of this is built around a brands design aesthetic - which is beautiful but Ducati has move passed this as being more precious then consistent results now and into the future.
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But they’ve done all the hard work already when it comes to SSSA. Now they need to recover that cost and amortize the R&D. Moving to a DSSA will re-incur these costs, time, and resources.

The DSSA will come with Ducati’s electric motorcycle to manage the extra torque
 
The word ‘electric’ makes me lose interest in any vehicle. The engine is the beating heart of any vehicle and without it there’s no emotional connection.
 
KarlKani said:
Based on the article this will be the reveal for the all new V4 that was supposed to be shown this last fall and was pushed. Which means that R version would probably be the following season. So 25 wsbk would still be the current bike.

The reason to change something that works is that if you zoom out and analyze the time and money that has gone into making a SSSA package work it does not make sense. From a practically stand point a double sided swingarm eliminates SO MANY arbitrary factors to making a package work ie setup. Having eccentric hub alone btw gearing + swingarm is a rabbit hole for setup that has worked for 1 person exceptionally in the last 12 years. All of this is built around a brands design aesthetic - which is beautiful but Ducati has move passed this as being more precious then consistent results now and into the future.
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the first and second sentences clearly explain that first comes an all new V4 platform, then next comes the R version of it. This is how they have always done this.

Pre 22 wsbk championship they were working towards possible shuffling this traditional roll out and there were strong mention that a new R would land first... Then the championship was landed AND still looming supply chain issues that caused everything to roll back. Hence the 23 R and where we are now

the article says road going first then race - but they are all road going.
 
SuperDomestique said:
But they’ve done all the hard work already when it comes to SSSA. Now they need to recover that cost and amortize the R&D. Moving to a DSSA will re-incur these costs, time, and resources.

The DSSA will come with Ducati’s electric motorcycle to manage the extra torque
Click to expand...

Not sure if you have ever watched Moto gp but they don't have SSSA, I think they might even have some data from that race series not sure
 
KarlKani said:
Not sure if you have ever watched Moto gp but they don't have SSSA, I think they might even have some data from that race series not sure
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Agreed but different applications. The sssa that WSBK uses is different to the road version already and they already have that data to work off of. Why make life hard? Don’t rock the boat if you’re winning
 
Nobody in any sport (or in business for that matter) would think if you are winning you stop trying to improve… that’s how you stop winning.
 
spooky said:
Nobody in any sport (or in business for that matter) would think if you are winning you stop trying to improve… that’s how you stop winning.
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So you’re currently dominating a championship with a SSSA and want to switch to DSSA on a whim because you think it’ll help. Who said stop improving? Iterate on what works for you. Switching to a DSSA poses lots of risk.

Conversely, by this logic DSSA bikes not winning should switch to SSSA.
 
KarlKani said:
The reason to change something that works is that if you zoom out and analyze the time and money that has gone into making a SSSA package work it does not make sense. From a practically stand point a double sided swingarm eliminates SO MANY arbitrary factors to making a package work ie setup. Having eccentric hub alone btw gearing + swingarm is a rabbit hole for setup that has worked for 1 person exceptionally in the last 12 years. All of this is built around a brands design aesthetic - which is beautiful but Ducati has move passed this as being more precious then consistent results now and into the future.
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Total nonsense what you wrote there. @SuperDomestique nicely summarized it above.

But I guess I'm not mechanically versed to see how Ducati sees competition and regulations in next 2-5 years. I guess they have better idea where all this is going.
 
spooky said:
Nobody in any sport (or in business for that matter) would think if you are winning you stop trying to improve… that’s how you stop winning.
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Dssa is not an improvement it's been on the market for decades.
Ducati could have switched 20 years ago but they didn't.

Your argument is silly and not appropriate here
 
SuperDomestique said:
So you’re currently dominating a championship with a SSSA and want to switch to DSSA on a whim because you think it’ll help. Who said stop improving? Iterate on what works for you. Switching to a DSSA poses lots of risk.

Conversely, by this logic DSSA bikes not winning should switch to SSSA.
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How many bikes do they have on the grid? They have far more data to draw on than any other manufacturer. You are talking as if the SSSA is the reason they are winning. 🫣 If a SSSA was a technically superior solution then they’d be using it on their GP bikes. I’d suggest the primary reason for using it is styling and it being part of their brand identity going back to the 916, as the last time they tried to change it (with the 999) it was not a popular move.

Who said anything about doing something on a whim?
 
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panibadboy said:
Dssa is not an improvement it's been on the market for decades.
Ducati could have switched 20 years ago but they didn't.

Your argument is silly and not appropriate here
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They tried to switch years ago and the market didn’t like it. I seem to recall that the 999 did quite well competitively though? GP bikes don’t use it and the Desmosedici didn’t. As mentioned above, the SSSA won’t be the reason they are winning. If they were to let GP tech trickle down then that might well lead to a DSSA. 🤷‍♂️ If a SSSA was better then presumably the GP bikes would use it.

I also did not say they should switch, so you are arguing against something I didn’t say…
 
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The elephant in the room is that the model, while arguably the best overall liter bike on the market, is getting stale in a way. Ducati is not Enzo Ferrari who made road cars to fund racing. Ducati funds racing to sell road bikes.

And if I am not alone then I might be part of the reason for this move. My bike is a 2020, I didn’t buy a 21 through 24 bike because while they are modest iterations improvements, there has not been enough of an iteration or change to entice me away from my highly modified bike and into a newer bike in a number of years.

This iteration, or rather the R version that’s soon to follow will get my money. Perhaps wrongly so, because we simply don’t know if it will be an improvement or not.

Overall I’d rather see them come out with that elusive seamless gearbox.

Having said all that, the KTM I’m on for this season is changing my view of bikes completely. The overall simplicity of the bike is in striking contrast to the Ducati. As is as just how stunningly well it works with very few modifications or adjustments at track.
 
spooky said:
How many bikes do they have on the grid? They have far more data to draw on than any other manufacturer. You are talking as if the SSSA is the reason they are winning. 🫣 If a SSSA was a technically superior solution then they’d be using it on their GP bikes. I’d suggest the primary reason for using it is styling and it being part of their brand identity going back to the 916, as the last time they tried to change it (with the 999) it was not a popular move.

Who said anything about doing something on a whim?
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I didn’t say the SSSA is THE reason why they’re winning. You’re applying that logic.

So why would Ducati pursue a technically inferior solution after the 999? Why did Ducati revert back to SSSA for the F08 1098R?

Each has its pros and cons. One solution isn't better than another. Different applications call for different solutions.

SSSA is simpler when it comes to flex properties. You have only 1 plane to deal with. With a DSSA you have to factor the deflection of 2 planes and how they interact.

But so far no one has seen any proof of a DSSA. No prototypes or spy shots
 
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Steven31371 said:
Having said all that, the KTM I’m on for this season is changing my view of bikes completely. The overall simplicity of the bike is in striking contrast to the Ducati. As is as just how stunningly well it works with very few modifications or adjustments at track.
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Just think if Ducati did something similar. Hoping they do a Supermono tribute
 
Steven I'm beginning to think you never had a belt drive superbike. So much simpler. And way lighter (40-50 lbs) They should have never taken the readily accessible height adjustment off the bikes. The eccentric becomes totally manageable, adjust the chain, check the ride height all done 5 minutes. I just went to adjustable dogbones due to the ease of use relative to dealing with screwing with putting the bike on jackstands to adjust the shock eye. My 916 has an eccentric in the head. 24.5/23.5. Takes about 5 minutes to flip it. Costs a little more. These are expensive motorcycles they should come with total adjustability.
 

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