Back in the shop

If you want a Ducati buy a 1098s. Good wheels, nice ohlins, motor has a broad span of torque (good drive particularly with the cams timed to supersport specs). Comes with 330 discs. Has TC that's better turned off. 150-155 HP at the wheel. Easy to work on. Has easily adjustable ride height. Collectors all want the 1198s so should be able to buy one cheap. Needs a slipper (readily available and cheap) and maybe different triples. Easy to work on. And as a racebike 360 dry?

CSV4 said:

Assume you lose ABS if you put the Sicoms on?

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No, just a rotor and pad replacement, nothing to do with ABS

The braking with the Sicoms isn’t dramatically enough different than say steel rotors and Z04’s to cause an error with the abs electronics.

The overall braking power is about the same though the ramp up or progression to full braking power is a very different feel with the Sicom. But no so diffferent as to cause an abs fault.

Steven31371 said:

What did you get?

I’m leaning toward a Kramer Evo2 690R

I want light, easy and crashable with good braking and control, that turns crisply.

When I 1st started building my bike it was about building the sexiest most capable bike I could…then learning how to ride it. But it was about the bike 1st, riding 2nd.

But now it’s all about the riding, I want to do some amateur racing but I’m far from being able to be competitive, and not progressing as quickly as I’d like…so now it’s about going back to basics with the bike, regardless of cost and looks.

As all of you said, learning to ride fast on a 120k nearly WSBK spec V4 isn’t probably the easiest route. But at the time I didn’t care, I wanted that super sexy bike to have fun on, and however fast I was or was not on it was okay.

Moving forward for at least half a season I want a bike that literally disappears under me but still does exactly what I ask it to do. A bike that’s flickable like my Ducati but that I give no ..... about low siding while I ride it at its limits, and reaching it’s limits are attainable fairly smoothly and easily.

I think I’ll go test ride a V2 and see how it feels, with the Kramer I also literally have to do nothing to it except get the right springs on it. (And maybe put some Sicom Rotors on there lol)

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Unless you’re around 130-150 lbs the 690 is going to feel slow. Even the 890 will feel slow down long straights. I was riding w an 890 at Laguna Seca which would pull 5-7 bike lengths through Rainey curve to T11 and I would catch it all back on the main “straight” by T2. That saying LS, isn’t an HP heavy track. I was probably 20 mph faster up to T1 and just maintained that closure over the crest to T2.

A well sorted V2 or just going w a more recent version on the V4 but turned down to low power would prob best meet your needs. All those mods and upgrades you did on your current V4 have muddied the waters. Keep things simple.

If you really wanted to get rider skill proficient, getting on a mini bike like an Ohvale (if that’s physically feasible if you’re lanky) or a dirt track (not mx) would seriously tune you up.

CSV4 said:

Assume you lose ABS if you put the Sicoms on?

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Injuneer….

Steven31371 said:

What did you get?

I’m leaning toward a Kramer Evo2 690R

I want light, easy and crashable with good braking and control, that turns crisply.

When I 1st started building my bike it was about building the sexiest most capable bike I could…then learning how to ride it. But it was about the bike 1st, riding 2nd.

But now it’s all about the riding, I want to do some amateur racing but I’m far from being able to be competitive, and not progressing as quickly as I’d like…so now it’s about going back to basics with the bike, regardless of cost and looks.

As all of you said, learning to ride fast on a 120k nearly WSBK spec V4 isn’t probably the easiest route. But at the time I didn’t care, I wanted that super sexy bike to have fun on, and however fast I was or was not on it was okay.

Moving forward for at least half a season I want a bike that literally disappears under me but still does exactly what I ask it to do. A bike that’s flickable like my Ducati but that I give no ..... about low siding while I ride it at its limits, and reaching it’s limits are attainable fairly smoothly and easily.

I think I’ll go test ride a V2 and see how it feels, with the Kramer I also literally have to do nothing to it except get the right springs on it. (And maybe put some Sicom Rotors on there lol)

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Sounds like an R1… that’s what I’d get.

Relatively cheap, will move a heavy lad and will satisfy your itch for mods lol.

R1
- Brakes
- Suspension
- Exhaust
- Track Fairing

… “Flat out the canyons”

No, seriously… it’s an established platform that’s fast, has part availability and in my opinion is one of if not the best looking and sounding bikes.

But most importantly… especially in your case is the size of the bike.

I rode a CBR 600RR before jumping on the Duc and the Honda wasn’t fun. Only had an exhaust and map, no other mods but It feels much faster than it is because of its size and worst of all is it was so difficult to get a comfortable body position to maneuver the bike.

I’ve come to the conclusion from this experience that chassis and controls ergonomics are probably the most important factor when considering a platform… followed by setup then components.

All things considered I think an R1 is currently by far the most practical bike to track.

Alkhater said:

Sounds like an R1… that’s what I’d get.

Relatively cheap, will move a heavy lad and will satisfy your itch for mods lol.

R1
- Brakes
- Suspension
- Exhaust
- Track Fairing

… “Flat out the canyons”

No, seriously… it’s an established platform that’s fast, has part availability and in my opinion is one of if not the best looking and sounding bikes.

But most importantly… especially in your case is the size of the bike.

I rode a CBR 600RR before jumping on the Duc and the Honda wasn’t fun. Only had an exhaust and map, no other mods but It feels much faster than it is because of its size and worst of all is it was so difficult to get a comfortable body position to maneuver the bike.

I’ve come to the conclusion from this experience that chassis and controls ergonomics are probably the most important factor when considering a platform… followed by setup then components.

All things considered I think an R1 is currently by far the most practical bike to track.

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All good advice, and when I’m done with the current project I might just do that.

I love the R1’s…what I’m leaning toward now is building out a Pierobon V4, because that’s the closest thing to a Kramer with a Ducati V4 rngine.

But before I do any of that I’m going to flog the .... out of an 80 HP 280 pound Kramer Evo2 until I have competitive and complete bike control through corners, until I can ride it at and over its limit on every lap of every corner. Then I’ll decide if I go back to a more manageable liter bike or go a midway step to a Kramer 890RR. And I’ll ride that until I can comfortably ride it at and over it’s limits on every corner.

Then we’ll go back to an R1 or most likely a Ducati powered Pierobon

I’m not looking for a new bike because I don’t love what I have and just want something new…I love my bike. But, I started riding sport bikes at 50 years old, when I was overweight and out of shape. I got a lot of coaching, I lost 30 pounds and got in shape, but I started riding as my very first bike essentially a V4 SR. It’s simply too much bike for me to learn to ride at its limits on, because the limits are so high and speeds so high etc, there was no progression to my riding building up to it with my skill sets building up to it too.

It’s like I entered a 3 point contest without ever playing basketball before. So I’m going to go backward to the beginning as far as o can go, the smallest bike “that I can fit on”, that still has world class handling characteristics and light weight so it’s still fun to ride seems to be the Kramer Evo2 690R. I have one mission with that bike…to learn bike control at the track, to get my knees and maybe elbows dragging, with the bike at the limits of its traction, with maximum corner roll speed precision and on throttle earlier harder and faster. Not chasing laptimes with that bike, chasing improved skill and daring with that bike.

what do you mean by a pierobon V4?

Alkhater said:

The Kramer/RC 8 looks like it's a smaller bike... being a larger lad don't you think that will be a hinderance?

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I sat on a Kramer GP2 RR a couple of weeks or so ago and it felt quite roomy. Really nice ergonomically. Very tempted…

KarlKani said:

what do you mean by a pierobon V4?

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That, but I called them last year and they SAID in 2023 they would have a kit for the V4R engine.

Yikes, a Pierobon track bike would be awesome yet so expensive and impractical. BMS built one up (X85R w 1199 motor) and it cost them upwards of $100+k

I wouldn't get a R1. Typical squid track day bike. Capable yes, terrible stock brakes, loud as hell with an exhaust. They feel heavy on track. Better to get somehting
lighter and less hp and enjoy the riding more...

Steven31371 said:

Pierobon X80R : Pierobon Frames - ciclistiche e accessori per moto.

X80R: Chassis kit for Ducati 4 valves 1098/1198/848 engines. X80R is a chassis kit designed to accept Ducati 4 valves 1098/1198/848 engines. What we offer you is the possibility to have your own bike with a chassis derived from our extensive experience in the racing scene.

www.pierobonframes.com

That, but I called them last year and they SAID in 2023 they would have a kit for the V4R engine.

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That’s what I thought you meant

Just want to say I applaud the decision of building your base level of talent to meet your desired pace on track. Smart way of doing it for sure though, like you, I was late to picking up this sport. Personally….like @SuperDomestique suggested, switch to low power and keep your beast. I would run Chuck like that for 1/2 the weekend last season, just took the edge off enough that my corner speed went way up due to less mismatch between the tail end of braking and entry speed.

In a recent event with Troy Corser he had us very focused on technique and was getting us to short-shift, keep the speed down and brake soon but lightly, trying to ride at 80%. He was saying that once you have the technique and feel comfortable with it, you can increase the speed and break harder initially.

I guess using the lower power setting would help with it.

I did a lap focused on body position and lines with light braking, never went above 90% throttle and used 5% less than my maximum lean angle and went 6 seconds faster.

A Kramer is very tempting though and it’s hard to argue against what you are suggesting.

@spooky CaliSBK School does a "4th gear no brakes" exercise that has a similar outcome. Did a lot of time with the JP43 school and they will try and get you to full stop on the throttle as early and often as possible...that's better than 5 double shot lattes for the 'ole ticker!!!

KarlKani said:

That’s what I thought you meant

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highly doubt they are doing this tho

spooky said:

In a recent event with Troy Corser he had us very focused on technique and was getting us to short-shift, keep the speed down and brake soon but lightly, trying to ride at 80%. He was saying that once you have the technique and feel comfortable with it, you can increase the speed and break harder initially.

I guess using the lower power setting would help with it.

I did a lap focused on body position and lines with light braking, never went above 90% throttle and used 5% less than my maximum lean angle and went 6 seconds faster.

A Kramer is very tempting though and it’s hard to argue against what you are suggesting.

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Troy Corser I think still owns the fastest lap at the old Sears Point. There was an AMA race at Sears the week after a superbike round at Laguna (mid 90's). For some reason they allowed him to run that AMA round (maybe they wanted the mechanics to see the VR1000 Harley that Miguel Duhamel was on). He had never seen the track before. I was racing AFM at the time and the fastest guys in the club had not yet broke into the 1' 40's. I think it was in qualifying he run's (if memory serves me well) a 1' 42 something. Seemed impossible to me at that time. Talented guy.

baggerman said:

Troy Corser I think still owns the fastest lap at the old Sears Point. There was an AMA race at Sears the week after a superbike round at Laguna (mid 90's). For some reason they allowed him to run that AMA round (maybe they wanted the mechanics to see the VR1000 Harley that Miguel Duhamel was on). He had never seen the track before. I was racing AFM at the time and the fastest guys in the club had not yet broke into the 1' 40's. I think it was in qualifying he run's (if memory serves me well) a 1' 42 something. Seemed impossible to me at that time. Talented guy.

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He passed me into a bend and buggered off out of sight down the back straight on his back wheel with a passenger on the back... He makes it look effortless.

One of the instructors told me he rode pillion with Troy at a track and when he checked the bike after to look at the stats he'd done 58 degrees of lean angle...

spooky said:

He passed me into a bend and buggered off out of sight down the back straight on his back wheel with a passenger on the back... He makes it look effortless.

One of the instructors told me he rode pillion with Troy at a track and when he checked the bike after to look at the stats he'd done 58 degrees of lean angle...

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Damn

KarlKani said:

highly doubt they are doing this tho

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They really don’t need to because the core of their setup is the trellis frame, which you don’t need on a V4 because the engine is the frame. They already sell the subframes and swingarms for the V4’s. And you can source a standard WSBK tank or an OEM tank and all the other components to build out the bike.

So you really don’t need a ‘kit’ from them, just the subframes and swingarm, the latter they have both extended SSSA’s and DSSWA, for the V4 already, though it would be nice if they just made a turnkey complete kit.

I think the way to go with them to essentially make an over powered Kramer is to do their 1299 or 1199 engines kit with the gas tank and electronics sorted etc. That would be a hell of a bike, nearly the lightness and agility and precision of a Kramer, with way more power.