Yup! Oh, you want me to tell you what the numbers are...
45NM +/-5% per the svc manual.
!! engine hanging loose in frame !!
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Yup! Oh, you want me to tell you what the numbers are...
45NM +/-5% per the svc manual.
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Yup! Oh, you want me to tell you what the numbers are...
45NM +/-5% per the svc manual.
61 ft/lbs is a fair bit of torque, I wonder if material is going away under the fastener causing it to loose its preload and back off, or if it is due to improper fasteners. After following this post I didn't feel secure at speed on my ride yesterday I kept it under 155 mph which isn't even redline in 4th
Glad to hear you're keeping it safe!
Might want to check your conversion chart, though - 45Nm is actually only 33.19 ft/lbs.Question for Kope999 di you notice any deformation or mushrooming in or around the bolt hole of airbox or under the airbox?
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Under each of the four nuts, sit two special washers. The workshop manual shows that each washer has ribs on it's surface, radiating out from the centre. On one side the ribs are widely spaced and on the other they are closer together. It states that the wider pattern sides of each pair of washers must face each other, so that the narrow spaced pattern on the outside of this "washer sandwich" bites against the airbox, where it is fed over the cylinder head stud. The nut then respectively bites down on this sandwich from atop, gripping against the narrow rib pattern on the top washer.
Note: Ducati recommend replacing these washers whenever the nuts are removed (as stated in the workshop manual), so by that they seem to be inferring that there will be deformation after use (probably to the ribs or maybe dimensionally if they are designed to be partially crushed). Oddly in other parts of the manual it makes no mention of these washers at all. I have included a picture for clarity.
I'm guessing that the washers are designed to lock against one another and the airbox & nut, to prevent rotation & loosening due to heat and vibration. Evidently it's not working very well. I still maintain that a steel nyloc nut instead of the polygonal ones Ducati use, might add more protection. This along with a high strength thread locker, ought to cure the problem. Surprised the torque figure is so low. Probably has more to do with the tensile load on the cylinder head studs. I've never hear of a Nyloc nut coming loose, but saying that my only concern would be the heat generated from the stud (since its directly connected to the cylinder head), possibly melting the insert, so my only other thought was drilling the studs and nuts, then wire-locking the nuts to studs after torqueing the nuts down. Overkill perhaps, but they are pretty fundamental to the safety of the whole bike and rider.
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Hmm, nylocs pretty much useless over 140C, so looking at these....
http://www.securitylocknut.com/
Benefits:
http://www.securitylocknut.com/benefits
http://www.securitylocknut.com/
Benefits:
http://www.securitylocknut.com/benefits
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Those lock washers are a lot like snor washers.
They're very effective.
I wonder if there is some deformation of the alloy material under them causing the fastener to eventually lose tension and then unwind.
I wouldn't drill and lock wire the fasteners. It's a bad move, and as you say an overkill not to mention complex.
Think about this.
What if the fastener has to be removed at a later date and in the process of torqueing the fasteners down the lock wire holes no longer match up.
It's all a waste of time. IMO.
You're going to be much better served by using a drop or two of some loktite blue (242,243). And periodical "checks for tightness" (not necessarily re-tensioning) of the fasteners.
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Brad, only threw some ideas into the fire. Probably tempted by those all metal locknuts. I emailed them today for more info so will post up when I get a response. Loctite, regular checks and maybe different nuts ought to solve the issue once and for all. Your right. Those washers are a lot like Schnorr washers: http://www.schnorr.com/safetywashers.html
Be interesting to see what verdict Ducati Benelux come back with, when Kope gets more info.
Be interesting to see what verdict Ducati Benelux come back with, when Kope gets more info.
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WTF!!!! That's insane Kope. Are they really suggesting that just because you track the bike, you need to check that it is not about to fall in half every so often. This is a dangerous, potentially fatal shortcoming and they either need to notify the factory (since you are not the only one on this forum who has had this problem) that this needs to be addressed by way of a recall, OR Ducati must insist that dealers check these nuts as a mandatory procedure, whenever a bike comes in for a service, no matter the mileage or use it has been through, until they can devise another solution.
Be interested to hear what Ducati UK say. As I advised another forum member on a different matter, you can always email Ducati in Bologna direct or better still Tweet about it on their page. If you go down the latter route, you WILL get a response and action from them very soon after that, as no company would want these sorts of findings publicized on such a prolific social media platform, where the through traffic is very high and they risk potentially losing face.
DUCATI will most likely issue a TSB directing dealers to check fastener tension on all Pani's when the air cleaner element is replaced at normal servicing.
Maybe also in conjunction with a campaign to replace the washers with new ones and apply Loktite to the threads.
If there are no reported accidents as a result of this problem, then any and all reference to it being a structural safety issue is purely speculation, and not based in fact.
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It's largely true.
That's motor racing
I can see that they might use this as reason enough to check your bike more often than say a road based bike user might. Be interesting however, to see what advice they would give to someone who doesn't track their machine and who has suffered the same issues as Kope, of which we know at least one other case on this forum.
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Well that would be a start, or let's just say "better than nothing". I only fear for those that are perhaps less mechanically inclined, as this sort of an issue may go unnoticed until it's too late. Hopefully a TSB will pick up on their machines, when they next come in for a service or check.
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He seems happy enough with what he's doing
Good on him.
I reckon, if I was doing what he does, where he's doing it and what he's doing it on. And above all who he's doing it for.
Not to mention.
The culture.
The history.
The architecture.
The country side.
The food.
The wine.
The women.
The cars.
The motorcycles.
I would be pretty happy as well
No wonder DUCATI makes the best motorcycles
I'll also bet he hardly ever sees a BMW all week.
Good on him.
I reckon, if I was doing what he does, where he's doing it and what he's doing it on. And above all who he's doing it for.
Not to mention.
The culture.
The history.
The architecture.
The country side.
The food.
The wine.
The women.
The cars.
The motorcycles.
I would be pretty happy as well
No wonder DUCATI makes the best motorcycles
I'll also bet he hardly ever sees a BMW all week.
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Guido needs a pimp slap. Happy or not, there is no excuse for this. Somewhere, early on in the development of the Panigale, there must have been a discussion among the engineering staff in regards to how critically important these fasteners staying PERFECTLY tight was to the rider's safety. I can live with the rear cowl flying off, or the exhaust silencer covers, hell, the damn mirrors for that matter. Such is not the case with the front end falling off. That is where I draw the line.
I recall wondering about those four studs in this forum not too long after the Pani was first released. Guys were moaning about "wheelie control" from the TC - they were thinking about how they couldn't do horn mono's, and all I could think about was the stress on those Four Nuts holding the front end on from a few hard front end drops. Especially the front two... Mine "should" have been checked at the 7,500 mile service a couple of K ago, but I think me and my torque wrench have a brief appointment sometime before Winter's end.
All designs have flaws.
They're just different from one another.
I've personally tightened up "plenty of critical fasteners" which were found to be quite loose, at the first service on a number of bikes.
With singles it's worse than twins.
Twins are typically worse than fours.
It's just the way of it
I always considered that there would be some teething problems with a mass produced version of a Monocoque bike like the 1199.
That's part of the price of admission with being an early adopter, and at no stage I was never under any delusions about that.
When they work out what's going on with the 1199 design, then they'll sort it out. Actually one could argue that the design is more reliable than the previous framed designs because they're only coming loose under the most extreme operating conditions.
Lets face it, the critical frame to engine fasteners can come loose on "street ridden" 1098/1198's as well. I know, as I've had it happen to me.
This is usually picked up at service times by a competent mechanic when they're going over the bikes critical fasteners.
So far my 1199 is going just fine with absolutely no signs of anything coming loose.
I'm personally not going to spit the dummy over something that "might happen", or that I perceive will actually happen to my bike, based on a couple of inconclusive posts on an internet forum.
Then throw the baby out with the bath water.
I think if it were a known issue to the engineers, it would've shown up in the racing programme or during durability testing.
Oh wait
I forgot
I already said that I'm dumping mine before anything goes wrong with it
Better do something about that hey
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