Hard starting

husker1 said:

What's the best way to bump start the bike? I've never had to do if before but I have the awful feeling that I might need to with this one.

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Here's our friend Sic (RIP) showing the art of the bump start @ the 1:20 mark of the video. Unfortunately, I've had to do this a few times.

MotoGP TT Assen 2011 / Lorenzo - Simoncelli 1st lap clash. - YouTube

Cool video. Shame he's not around anymore...

^ Yup. I was at that race, and have a near identical video of the incident. He got a well deserved round of applause after getting it going again.

Anyone want to guess where my Panigale is.......... That's right the dealership. This time it did not destroy the starter but I highly encourage all of you that can afford to be without your bike that you take it to your dealership so we can put pressure on Ducati North America to fix the hard start condition after 12-20mile rides in 90F+ temperatures and let the bike sit for 30min-1hr. Video tape the bike and post it here. My conditions were very similar to the initial failure. Drive to lunch, eat, get on the bike and it just turns over and over. Heavy scent of fuel and start attempts that fail. Power cycled key on and off. Retry with the same conditions. Several more attempts and it finally starts. Ride to Ducati stop and restart, no problem. Go inside send the vidoe go outside and it fails to start. This time, I have the sales and service members present. So it might start, it might not, it might destroy the starter, it might not. I for one am not going to take that chance and I have started pursuing the Texas Lemon Law. I hopefully will either get a full refund bike and accessories or a new bike with all accessories transferred and 4 year warranty and paid service contract. Either way, Ducati..... We have a Problem!!!! Additionally, I have sent an email to Dane Ramos with Ducati North America at [email protected] and encourage everyone to do the same if their bike is not starting correctly under similar conditions.

Anyone else read the most recent Motor Cyclist August 2012. They reviewed the big 4 Euro bikes and the Panigale section page 70, 3rd paragraph states: "A cool,fighter jet-style shielded starter switch ignites teh Superquadro("Supersquare") V-twin with some effort-our testbike occasionally struggled to start, especially when hot."

HELLO DUCATI, EVEN THE MAGAZINES ARE TELLING YOU THE SAME THING!!!

There is something wrong when this bike gets hot and with the smaller battery and starter, something is going to give in the form of a dead/low battery or starter grenade.

no starting problems since charcoal canister removed and bike on battery tender in garage.

today at 90 F with over 200F water. 2 cranks and that thing fires up right away.
initially also had hot starting problems. exhaust valve connection mode had no influence...

Did someone say it is only the US models that have this charcoal canister - which could be the source of the problem?

I've bought a LiFePO4 battery ready for the bike to show up.
Maybe I won't need it, and it can go on the 848 instead.

Battery on a tender is cheating Phil

I have about 1000 miles on my S model. I have had the hard start issue occur 5 times now. Once it happened on a cold engine as well. I took it to the dealer and in two weeks time the conclusion is they will not replace anything because nothing they have tested appears to have failed. I can understand that thinking but of course leaves me with a bike that won't always start. 2 of those times, it took over 5 min for the bike to eventually start. Not good.

Might need to start taking some video on your phones when this happens so they've got some undeniable proof.

Rhino said:

Might need to start taking some video on your phones when this happens so they've got some undeniable proof.

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Well as it would be, they don't care about the video.... We can post them but when I contacted my dealer and DNA to let them know of the issue and that I had it on video, they stated that "The event must be witnessed and experienced by a member of their service department."

This kind of statement leads me to think very negatively. It is like them saying....because they are trained to hit the little button and we customers are not that there is a high potential for them to hit the starter button different than any of us do.....

I guess there are some small nuiances that could come into play like when you hit the button. Surely everyone would wait for the TFT to come up and everything to be stable but I ASS-U-ME. My Honda had a nice little light that came up indicating that the environmental mapping was complete and ready to start. AMAZING TECHNOLOGY!!!!

All that aside, I think Phil and the guys removing the canisters are on the right track. If you look at the diagram, the ECU has no way of accounting for this additional fuel intake into the manifolds. On a hot day, evaporation combined with the hot engine temps, drive a large amount of fuel vapor into the canister resulting in the potential for a very rich starting condition. Seems to align with all of my symptoms and original problem statement to DNA and my dealer. However, the Ducati's small starter and battery are not going to last in over rich conditions or excessive lean conditions that are not condusive to a quick start.

Rhino said:

Did someone say it is only the US models that have this charcoal canister - which could be the source of the problem?

I've bought a LiFePO4 battery ready for the bike to show up.
Maybe I won't need it, and it can go on the 848 instead.

Battery on a tender is cheating Phil

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Rhino,
I am not sure which forum I read it on as I lurk on 2 the other being 1199forums. However, there was a claim that the Lithium battery will void your warranty as the Panigale is not capable of supporting the technology. Why?? Don't know but take a look around and check with your dealer.

if i'm not wrong, the starter is not so far away from the lower cylinders' manifold, so radiating heat can dissipate in the starters direction... by this lowering the current for starting with the given voltage due to a higher resistance. that combined with the gas vapors might make the starting really hard.

Chadf80 said:

I have about 1000 miles on my S model. I have had the hard start issue occur 5 times now. Once it happened on a cold engine as well. I took it to the dealer and in two weeks time the conclusion is they will not replace anything because nothing they have tested appears to have failed. I can understand that thinking but of course leaves me with a bike that won't always start. 2 of those times, it took over 5 min for the bike to eventually start. Not good.

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Well, this data gives me pause. Does anyone know how to start a poll. I would like to get one on this issue so we can capture data. I understand the need to have the issue present to capture data from the bike but they should at least log the event. The more we hit Ducati with the data the more likely they will begin to give attention to the issue and investigate deeper. Right now, I am probably one of the few being a complete pain in the arse on this matter.

Here is the poll I would like to start if someone can teach me how. Let me know if you want to add other conditions.

Hard Start with the following conditionals.

1. Daytime temps >90F bike sitting in direct sunlight >30 min
2. Daytime temps >90F bike sitting in shade >30 min
3. Daytime temps <90F bike sitting in direct sunlight >30 min
4. Daytime temps <90F bike sitting in shade >30 min
5. Cold bike - not ridden in spans > 6hrs garaged or shade
6. Cold bike - not ridden in spans > 6hrs direct sunlight

I've emailed ducati about this. I'm not sure this is true. The only issue I could see is if you use the shorai charger with the battery hooked up to the bike. (something you don't need to do with shorai). I can't see where it'd make a difference. It's a 12 volt battery and cranking amps while higher than the stock battery it's not out of line with the cca on the other liter ducatis (I've had a shorai on my SF for 6-8 months with no issues.

I'll let everyone know if/when I hear from ducati.

mavic said:

Rhino,
I am not sure which forum I read it on as I lurk on 2 the other being 1199forums. However, there was a claim that the Lithium battery will void your warranty as the Panigale is not capable of supporting the technology. Why?? Don't know but take a look around and check with your dealer.

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zvez said:

I've emailed ducati about this. I'm not sure this is true. The only issue I could see is if you use the shorai charger with the battery hooked up to the bike. (something you don't need to do with shorai). I can't see where it'd make a difference. It's a 12 volt battery and cranking amps while higher than the stock battery it's not out of line with the cca on the other liter ducatis (I've had a shorai on my SF for 6-8 months with no issues.

I'll let everyone know if/when I hear from ducati.

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'Preciate it

mavic said:

Rhino,
I am not sure which forum I read it on as I lurk on 2 the other being 1199forums. However, there was a claim that the Lithium battery will void your warranty as the Panigale is not capable of supporting the technology. Why?? Don't know but take a look around and check with your dealer.

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I'll get them to install it during pre-delivery and see if they convey any warranty related issues/concerns.

i think i figured out how to not have any starting problems. let your bike run for 30 secs after running and then kill it.

mavic said:

Rhino,
I am not sure which forum I read it on as I lurk on 2 the other being 1199forums. However, there was a claim that the Lithium battery will void your warranty as the Panigale is not capable of supporting the technology. Why?? Don't know but take a look around and check with your dealer.

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Well.. if for whatever reason the battery exploded, cause a fire, etc etc. Then sure. Otherwise they can't just categorically "Void" the warranty, at least not in Australia.

The LifePO4 is a pretty stable and robust battery chemistry, and can take a fair bit of abuse.

oblong said:

Hell, that's why I purchased it!!
Thanks Sebastian

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me too...

DUCENZO said:

I too have had this problem, at random times. whether tis been sitting for an hour or sitting overnight, even when the bike is hot from riding.

I habitually start it in nuetral to eliminate the clutch dragging, that doesn't help.

When this happens, the only way I can get her started is if I open throttle a little while starting.

I've also had it shut off on my while sitting idle, even at a stop light...its becoming embarrassing :-/

..ready for some answers

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mine has had hard start at times and I was specifically told NOT to give it any throttle so I wasn't but I guess Ill try that nxt as for shutting off mine did it at a red light twice and I only have 360 miles on it

Mine is sitting at the dealer getting diagnosed.

I've got to get it fixed. Headed to Deals Gap next week.

Another member arrived shortly after I did Saturday to drop his off for the exact same thing.

My symptoms are simple. Anything between 120F-170F and it doesn't want to start. Typically this happens when I've gone some place to eat and it's sat for 30 minutes or so.

Many, many people that own Panigale's are not members on this forum. 2 Saturday's ago I rode with a group of 4 Panigale's. All of them at one time or another had the same issue. Mine appeared to be the worst in the group.

All 4 of us had lunch after an early morning ride. We joked before coming out that there would be issues. One bike started the first try. Two on the second or third attempt. Mine I tried 5 times without success. I sent the group on there way. I decided to find some shade, and wait for the bike to cool down even more. After 90 minutes she fired right up.