Heat

iiiofiv said:

I just picked up my Termi pipes and am about to ship them off to Jet-Hot Ceramic Coatings for their Jet-Hot Extreme 1300 coating. I'm not having the exterior colored, per se, but rather polished.

I've had several conversations about this not only with Jet-Hot but also with both motorcycle and automotive enthusiasts and a couple of small plane owners and each one has commented positively about the heat and protection aspects of the ceramic coating they've had done.

I was given an estimate of US165.00 for the Termi pipes (~US200.00 including shipping) and told it takes about three days to do - so roughly a week total.

I'll probably do the break-in on the stock pipes and cans then replace them with the Termis at the first service.

And, while the bike STILL isn't here, I'll post pictures when the pipes return coated and let you know, once they are on, if the difference is noticeable.

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Considered doing this, but they wanted the exhaust for 3 weeks and as I'm not going Termi, I wasn't going wait.

I hear ya!

I'm just lucky the bike isn't here yet.

If there really is a significant radiated heat delta between coated and non-coated I'll let you know. And, if so, I may even have the stock pipes coated in the event Johnny Justice nabs me for my street ILLEGAL pipes and I'm compelled to put the stockers back on.

Honestly, the feedback I've received, price, life-time warranty and the relatively short turn-around time seem to make this an easy decision for me.

Will keep the forum posted.

iiiofiv said:

I hear ya!

I'm just lucky the bike isn't here yet.

If there really is a significant radiated heat delta between coated and non-coated I'll let you know. And, if so, I may even have the stock pipes coated in the event Johnny Justice nabs me for my street ILLEGAL pipes and I'm compelled to put the stockers back on.

Honestly, the feedback I've received, price, life-time warranty and the relatively short turn-around time seem to make this an easy decision for me.

Will keep the forum posted.

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Company I was going to use in the UK said it was much better to apply the coating when they were new. Did you get similar advise?

PaddockStand said:

Company I was going to use in the UK said it was much better to apply the coating when they were new. Did you get similar advise?

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I did. Exactly the same thing.

And one of my pilot friends who bought a used air plane said the same thing. He sent the header from his airplane in and while it looks great now the pipes and header had to be extensively and expensively cleaned and all the pits and hairline cracks from thousands of heat cycles and weathering show through the exterior coating.

This said, the visible aesthetics aside, coating a cleaned but used part will most likely have the same thermal results as would a new part.

Don't be to quick to jump on the ceramic coating bandwagon. I have used Jet hot and two other companies on three different bikes. Ceramic coating looks great for a very short time. It does little for heat no matter what they say.
The problem is if the bike runs even a little rich or a little rain hits the pipes, they will be effected cosmetically. I like to keep my bike looking perfect and nothing worse then pipes with water damage or chips. Also they are VERY soft until you put enough miles on them.
My local ceramic coating guy no longer even does motorcycle pipes. Just not worth the trouble for him.

MadeinItaly said:

Don't be to quick to jump on the ceramic coating bandwagon. I have used Jet hot and two other companies on three different bikes. Ceramic coating looks great for a very short time. It does little for heat no matter what they say.
The problem is if the bike runs even a little rich or a little rain hits the pipes, they will be effected cosmetically. I like to keep my bike looking perfect and nothing worse then pipes with water damage or chips. Also they are VERY soft until you put enough miles on them.
My local ceramic coating guy no longer even does motorcycle pipes. Just not worth the trouble for him.

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+1 on thermal effect. I have Belanger headers on my Viper and these are coated and if you ask me the thermal effect is close to non-existent. I still have to have shield although the 'internet wisdom' was saying that with coating i wouldn't need them. BS. It looks as if the coating is rather for cosmetic protection.

Hi, is the heat about the same as any other Ducati SBK?

can't be any worse than the heat hitting my right leg on my rsv4 nor my 996 for that matter, blistered my leg, literally.

zvez said:

can't be any worse than the heat hitting my right leg on my rsv4 nor my 996 for that matter, blistered my leg, literally.

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Ouch...at least I get a benefit from the heat generated by my 1098. Keeps the seat warm during the colder months and keeps the hemorrhoids in check during the summer months

I reached out to a friend of mine about this, this afternoon. He's a professor at the US Naval Postgraduate School, in Monterey, California. He's been working and teaching thermal dynamics for a number of years and pushed through quite a few postgraduate engineers in his time. Though his expertise is not EGTs and exhaust systems, he certainly understands the physics and materials aspects, regardless.

First off, he thinks I'm crazy for getting a 400LB/195HP motorcycle but we were able to move beyond that.

I asked him for his opinion on the thermal insulation and performance improvement properties likely to be found in the most common materials and applications available on the market, such as those provided by Jet-Hot, Finish Line and Swain Tech coatings, for example. He said he was not familiar with them, their products, materials or processes. So, I sent him some of the comments and posts from here and a few automotive forums as well as the links to the aforementioned coating outfits for him to look at.

He said he'd see if an enterprising engineering student had some spare time to actually look at this for us and that he was sure he had one in the pipeline who was also equally crazy. - obviously a less than veiled reference to motorcycles and the loons who ride them.

Off the point of his head, he suggested that what was commercially available was most likely not THE MOST thermally advantageous material out there but that they likely do offer some thermal value. He said, likely, most value from their products is gained through improvements in potential corrosion resistance and appearance. The key things I took from this conversation were his comments related to insulation, conduction and flow dynamics and that the first two are generally related but typically have no relation to the latter save at the molecular level and that flow dynamics (performance improvement through improved gas flow) is least likely to be positively impacted by these sorts of commercial coating applications.

He also said that with very high quality/high density stainless steel, thermal coating for our level of heat exposure, thermal-cycles and pressures would really not be necessary but that he doubted the quality of the stainless used in our headers was really sufficient grade to negate the value of an aftermarket/commercial coating, even if it provides only slightly improved thermal protection value.

So, with this, I'll let him see what he and his students come up with and post the results back when I get them. Granted, this is one man's opinion, albeit one very smart man, and he hasn't done any direct scientific work on this specific topic (motorcycle/automotive exhaust) but he his a thermal dynamics whiz so I'm guessing he's still smarter than most of us when it comes to this stuff. And, just maybe, he's got a student who can contribute some reliable and scientific findings to this discussion rather than what we have to go on from the proffers of such services. I intend to show him my pipes when they return from Jet-Hot.

Oh, in regards to wrapping with thermal insulation, he opined that while it likely offers some thermal insulation by reducing radiated heat, it does little to enhance the thermal properties of the metal and exhaust gas flow like a bonded coating could. He also said he thought external insulation wrapping applied in the kind of conditions we have on our bikes, where the pipes and wrapping are actually exposed to the elements, may actually do more harm than good through corrosion of the metal surface by contamination from debris accumulation within the wrapping. - especially over the long term.

Sorry this is sort of long-ish but hopefully it is of some value.

iiiofiv said:

First off, he thinks I'm crazy for getting a 400LB/195HP

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He is right and you know it but then again that's what we like to do.
I like your approach of harnessing the professional knowledge out there to fix some of the bike's shortcomings.

Looking forward to the results on this. Are you gonna offer your bike/pipes for testing? (great post btw)

jjmontesanto said:

Looking forward to the results on this. Are you gonna offer your bike/pipes for testing? (great post btw)

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I didn't tell him that I'd already sent my pipes out for coating but I do intend to let him "examine" them when they get back and before I have them installed.

And, thanks. I was a little concerned it might be just a bit too geeky. But I learned a lot in our roughly hour long conversation.

I used to be a mechanical engineer in a former life, so this stuff is interesting to me. I would really like to see how the thermodynamic claims of the coaters pan out against the unbiased scientific method. Although the look of the ceramic coatings, and the extended life they should allow are reasons enough for me to buy in regardless of the outcome.

In my current life, I have a friend who just graduated from the fine institution your friend teaches at (I'm a National Defense University alum).

Engine Ice. Works the best. Even on the Duc

carldickson said:

Hi, is the heat about the same as any other Ducati SBK?

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I would say more or less the same - as long as 898 I drove is SBK.

Would replacing the stock exhaust shield with a carbon fiber one make a difference?

the cf cover that comes with the termi pipes has alum foil type material, without that you'd not get much benefit from it.

panigale1199 said:

Would replacing the stock exhaust shield with a carbon fiber one make a difference?

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carldickson said:

Hi, is the heat about the same as any other Ducati SBK?

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I'd say it's no worse than my 1198S was, but I was sort of hoping that getting rid of the under-seat cans would help with the rear end heating issues.

It's no biggie - just make sure you ride quick enough and stay away from traffic congestion (not easy here in the UK...)

bump.... any update on the heat / ceramic coating test?