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Paul G said:
Honda and Yamaha are not being crybabies, its the commentariat that are saying they should have concessions. Why they are behind is up for debate but i think that dont really want aero and are being dragged rather than leading into it. The whole point of the spec ecu was to equalise the playing field, now Dall'igna has achieved the similar results using aero and ride height to prevent wheelie and get drive out of the exit. You may like the modern GP with limited passing and riders stuck behind others due to tire pressure issues, dirty air and difficult slipstreaming etc. This is why we see the "win the start and extend from there" strategy working so effectively. Pecco is fantastic at it, but as he says, you cant get stuck behind someone you need clear air asap. Result exciting first corner/lap then pretty dull processions
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QFT.

When aero becomes the predominant development path, it ruins racing.
 
craig bush said:
QFT.

When aero becomes the predominant development path, it ruins racing.
Click to expand...

Yeah I disagree , If you're saying this based on F1 history its flawed. 90% of what makes a motorcycle go round the track is rider input 10% is bike. F1 cars are the opposite. IMO the aerodynamics you people are talking about only made the powerful L4 more usable in a corner. I think engine output and weight distribution are two factors that made the package more competitive when put together with current aerodynamics. theoretically less power can be faster , but all things being equal more power and better turning is what is actually faster around the track. from a physics and engineering standpoint motorcycles are insane and no one should ever ride them because they are dangerous unstable and unsafe. BUT because everyone reading this is a motorcycle rider or racer we don't think about it cars are gay pushing a little peddle with the toe and turning a round wheel with your hands its like a video game and a child could do it. motorcycles require another level of skill and physical input that car guys will never understand. the I4 had better turning less push in the corners and now the aero has made the less powerful growler worthless and weak. yamaha has lost the plot honda has bet on a bad formula of crashing to win and ktm is using the winning formula it has used in it's past endeavors to be slowly creeping up to the top. aprilia sold motorcycles out of tractor supply companies here in the USA for years so I never know what they are going to do next.
 
I think they should stop complaining because it's the development path their team chose. Spend more money and fix it, or be happy never finishing higher than tenth.
 
craig bush said:
Yeah, Fabio and Marc should stop complaining about their bikes then since it’s 90% them.
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I was saying comparatively speaking bikes to cars . this is where the term taken out of context comes from. I was comparing bikes to cars and aero development explaining my opinion that this will not lead to a boring sport like it did in F1. You still have to lean off the bike. I do not believe that the motorcycle racing is 90% the rider and 10% team that wins the race . not sure what that ratio is , but I hope clarification was achieved
 
Macattack said:
Yeah I disagree , If you're saying this based on F1 history its flawed. 90% of what makes a motorcycle go round the track is rider input 10% is bike. F1 cars are the opposite. IMO the aerodynamics you people are talking about only made the powerful L4 more usable in a corner. I think engine output and weight distribution are two factors that made the package more competitive when put together with current aerodynamics. theoretically less power can be faster , but all things being equal more power and better turning is what is actually faster around the track. from a physics and engineering standpoint motorcycles are insane and no one should ever ride them because they are dangerous unstable and unsafe. BUT because everyone reading this is a motorcycle rider or racer we don't think about it cars are gay pushing a little peddle with the toe and turning a round wheel with your hands its like a video game and a child could do it. motorcycles require another level of skill and physical input that car guys will never understand. the I4 had better turning less push in the corners and now the aero has made the less powerful growler worthless and weak. yamaha has lost the plot honda has bet on a bad formula of crashing to win and ktm is using the winning formula it has used in it's past endeavors to be slowly creeping up to the top. aprilia sold motorcycles out of tractor supply companies here in the USA for years so I never know what they are going to do next.
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90%? even if the bike made 1% difference thats about a second per lap which is 27 seconds away from winning at the end of a GP. Bikes do make the difference, moreover the closer they get, it becomes exponentially harder to get ahead. If you want the Ducati cup and 100% rider and team skill then fine, but if you want manufacturers competing you have to adjust the rules regularly, it happens all the time in F1. MotoGP has fundamentally changed with aero and ride height, Ducati has the jump now the rules need to be changed to equalise the field for the long term benefit of the sport and also for the riders who are getting munted badly this year due to the format. Furthermore if you agree that it should predominantly be about rider skill then surely you support rule changes to make that more likely. In response to the injuries, Pecco made a comment a while ago about how there should be more difference between the satellites and factory, sort of a "do your time" and earn the right to challenge for the title as well as separating the bikes a bit more. Unless we want Moto3 tyle racing only then Dorna needs to do something to allow Honda and Yamaha to catch up whether that be more testing or limiting aero, but the days of last lap thrillers between multiple brands and riders are mostly gone.
 
Honda's problem now is that all of their riders except one are injured, so they can't develop much but such is their fortune or lack thereof.

There's been a few different interviews whereas people speak to how the Japanese management has a different philosophy than the European teams, favoring a very conservative development approach. I think it's too early to talk about concessions but probably the right time for those teams who need to be more aggressive in their approach to do just that. More hard work, less welfare.
 
I believe that the key to the ducati's dominance is the engineering being applied to carbon fiber fork tubes. Front end feel is everything. The rears behind you. Ducati has always had enough motor. The honda guys keep losing the front. Race after race. The crash last year where quattanaro got tossed like a rag doll due to the electronics mentally did him in. He doesn't trust the bike. Sad that. The japanese will eventually reverse engineer the ducati front ends and become competitive again. KTM seems to be competitive on the tracks with shorter straights. To penalize ducati because the desmo valvetrains give them 25+ more HP would be uttter BS. But unless they allow pneumatic valvesprings I don't see the HP being level.
 
I actually worked for a japanese company for awhile (building a manufacturing site). The only way I could function was to never ask permission only forgiveness because nothing would get done otherwise. They loved me because I accepted all the responsibility. I thought that was what they were paying me for.
 
Suzuki was so effective and able to win a championship so quickly after rejoining GP bc they had Japanese engineering with a European development mentality. Shame that Brivio left and Livio was left with a parent company looking to get out of racing. Yamaha’s folly was not picking the Suzuki dev team
 
Well the riders get a 5 week break, perhaps the Japanese engineers should spend that time developing new parts. New aero packages and chsssis. They are not allowed motor development. They get six to use and they are marked and sealed by DORNA
 
Macattack said:
I was saying comparatively speaking bikes to cars . this is where the term taken out of context comes from. I was comparing bikes to cars and aero development explaining my opinion that this will not lead to a boring sport like it did in F1. You still have to lean off the bike. I do not believe that the motorcycle racing is 90% the rider and 10% team that wins the race . not sure what that ratio is , but I hope clarification was achieved
Click to expand...

I appreciate the clarification. I don’t have the knowledge to legitimately debate the issue, but I can’t help suspecting it means something that there are 3 former world champions on the grid, all of whom won championships in the last four years, and all of whom now struggle to break the top ten.

Either they’ve all suddenly and catastrophically lost their skill, or something else is going on. How interesting that two ride Hondas and the other rides a Yamaha.

Aero has only been the predominant development factor for two years, and already riders can’t pass, can’t manage front tire temp, a recent championship winning constructor pulled out of series entirely, 40% of the grid is one manufacturer, and 3 of the last four title winners can’t place better than tenth…

And folks are scratching their heads wondering how it is that the rider who redefined how a MotoGP bike is ridden suddenly can’t ride one, and why viewership is down.
 
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craig bush said:
And folks are scratching their heads wondering why viewership is down.
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It's NOT because Dorna put it behind a $100 paywall, that's for sure. It could be that it's because they put it behind a $100 paywall then email clickbait spoilers and post the footage with spoiler thumbnails on their YouTube channel.
 
bp_SFV4 said:
It's NOT because Dorna put it behind a $100 paywall, that's for sure. It could be that it's because they put it behind a $100 paywall then email clickbait spoilers and post the footage with spoiler thumbnails on their YouTube channel.
Click to expand...

Maybe. I suspect it has something to do with the entertainment value of the racing as well.

Pretty sure attendance is down too.

My apologies for the ongoing editing. :)
 
I'm not so sure. I think the way people consume content now has changed radically even in the last few years. Social media engagement means more than ratings these days.
 
If honda / yamaha had the better areo package and were fighting for podium more often this conversation would not be happening. IMO this aerodynamic and ride height stuff is part of the formula that is making ducati win a bit more often . the L4 motor creates different weight distribution compared to the Inline 4 the i4 had a advantage the aero took that away . this is a handling cornering issue unlike the f1 series in which the cars are beyond what could ever govern a humans physical ability and talent. they can almost always match the traction ability of to the hp in f1 making them seem robot driven and reaction time the biggest factor. motogp has like 10 other variables lean angle , throttle control, wheelie control, braking control, acceleration and deceleration in apex vs countersteering and etc etc. F1 imo is slot car racing and no amount of aero is going to make a motorcycle stick to the ground like a f1 car.
 
Macattack said:
If honda / yamaha had the better areo package and were fighting for podium more often this conversation would not be happening. IMO this aerodynamic and ride height stuff is part of the formula that is making ducati win a bit more often… F1 imo is slot car racing and no amount of aero is going to make a motorcycle stick to the ground like a f1 car.
Click to expand...

I’m inclined to agree.

How does that relate to any of the points I made above (post 213)?
 

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