New Panigale V4 is ugly?

I think Renny was the fasted guy out that day besides Valia obvsly - def faster then BVG

KarlKani said:

I think Renny was the fasted guy out that day besides Valia obvsly - def faster then BVG

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Looks like he posted 1:43.59 lap on the Instagram and the same lap is on the youtube. Allegedly, this was one of his opening laps, but no other later laps that could have been quicker were made public in that case.

Found this comment on youtube:
Started off at a 1:50 (first time I'd seen the track), then consistent 46's. After lunch, with the changes made, it was consistent 1:43s with a fastest of 1:43.2. For reference, Italian Superstock 1000 does a pole of 1:36s with 10-15th around 1:42-43s

SuperDomestique said:

The STANDARD 22 V4S without all the whiz bang electronics is only a second off the 25 bike which wasnt standard as Neevesy inaccurately states. The 25 RoC bikes had WSBK calipers and rotors.

For context, the lap record around Vallelunga is 1m36s which is similar to Misano. So logically the 22 V4S should only be a second a lap slower around Vallelunga than the 25 but for some odd reason it isn’t… Chad’s video implies that the 25 bike is 4-5 sec faster which is incorrect. This says that having data and a dedicated engineer buys you 3-4 secs and the bike is another second. The 20 to 22 difference was only a sec and the 22 to 25 bike follows a similar trend. It’s not as revolutionary as one might initially think.

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22V4S has plenty of whiz bang electronics, and yes it is well established that for a pro rider 25 model is "about 1 second faster". Pecco mentioned in one of the interviews that he still "had to find ways to turn the new bike". WSBK brakes do not make them go any faster vs stock, but it is not a bad idea on the bikes given to elite riders for a fun race.

I think Chad is conveying 25 bike was 4-5 seconds faster for him at this particular circuit, and I am sure some tips from the data analysis helped him find time. At the same time, I would not give all the credit to the data guy for the improvement. It is not a difficult to see on the data that "you need to brake later and accelerate harder and sooner" or keep throttle pinned through a fast corner, but applying that on the track is not so easy. I think this format motivated them to go harder, Valia's coaching helped some, but the majority of individual improvement still most likely came from the bike. My opinion, after watching this round of reviews, non-pro advanced riders' benefit is more than 1 second and perhaps 2 or even more on a 1:40 lap, in other words, significant.

thorny said:

22V4S has plenty of whiz bang electronics, and yes it is well established that for a pro rider 25 model is "about 1 second faster". Pecco mentioned in one of the interviews that he still "had to find ways to turn the new bike". WSBK brakes do not make them go any faster vs stock, but it is not a bad idea on the bikes given to elite riders for a fun race.

I think Chad is conveying 25 bike was 4-5 seconds faster for him at this particular circuit, and I am sure some tips from the data analysis helped him find time. At the same time, I would not give all the credit to the data guy for the improvement. It is not a difficult to see on the data that "you need to brake later and accelerate harder and sooner" or keep throttle pinned through a fast corner, but applying that on the track is not so easy. I think this format motivated them to go harder, Valia's coaching helped some, but the majority of individual improvement still most likely came from the bike. My opinion, after watching this round of reviews, non-pro advanced riders' benefit is more than 1 second and perhaps 2 or even more on a 1:40 lap, in other words, significant.

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Why don’t you think WSBK brakes can make you faster? You brake later, carry more corner speed, and can accelerate faster because of this. It’s probably worth a few tenths or they wouldn’t put them on WSBK bikes.

I’d argue that a pro rider can exploit a bikes limit more so therefore any deficiency would be more apparent and any desirable trait would be exploited. They’re also more consistent. An average rider will be more inconsistent and be able to improve just with running more laps.

Also 1-2% difference is significant?

SuperDomestique said:

Why don’t you think WSBK brakes can make you faster? You brake later, carry more corner speed, and can accelerate faster because of this. It’s probably worth a few tenths or they wouldn’t put them on WSBK bikes.

I’d argue that a pro rider can exploit a bikes limit more so therefore any deficiency would be more apparent and any desirable trait would be exploited. They’re also more consistent. An average rider will be more inconsistent and be able to improve just with running more laps.

Also 1-2% difference is significant?

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I may be wrong on this, but OEM Stylema brakes with some race pads are good enough to brake like Toprak and go over the front wheel. WSBK brakes are probably just better at dissipating heat and maybe feel and consistency to some degree hence safer for top level competitors. I did run Brembo T-drive rotors for a little bit with stock calipers, but felt no difference whatsoever to OEM rotors. They did make a cool clicky-clack noise when rolling the bike around which I liked.

1-2 second is significant for someone running pace within 10 seconds of a pro rider on a two-minute lap. For someone slower by 20 second or more - not at all. My 2 cents.

I'd like to see a 22 model on the same day, same data engineer, same rider and see the difference. I like the reports of being easier on tires

They were not wsbk brakes

KarlKani said:

They were not wsbk brakes

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Were they stock brakes?

Who cares about lap times in the real world where most riders live? In the rarified air of those who can afford to mostly track, race and crash the latest model Pani of which this board has a far greater proportion then sure, 1 second is a very big deal indeed. All other things being equal if there are two bikes on the floor Im picking the 25 over the 24 all day long. That does not mean the 24 is "slow" because the rider still makes the biggest difference. I love the auto rear trail braking feature, literally magic on wheels to me who still doesn't power slide the rear using DSC. What's not to love about the 25, in many respects this is a non conversation, if you are on the cusp of buying a new litrebike or upgrading it's a no brainer. 25 is good looking IMHO, obviously fast with a stack of neat features compared the previous model but I am no hurry to upgrade because my bike still rides beautifully, looks and sounds great plus I have shitloads of spares like fairings, pegs, bars, engine parts etc so its not just about getting the latest and greatest.

SuperDomestique said:

Red flag is probably too strong of a word. More dubious of Ducati’s marketing…. I think this bike is a technically a step forward but not as much as they’re telling us. I hope it’s a step forward. That’s progress.

I interpret this data engineer nonsense at the launch as you need to have an engineering degree to ride this bike fast rather than it being organic. You have to be told where and how to improve and if you don’t have that data you’d be none the wiser. Basically, if they didn’t have a dedicated data engineer, would they have been able to take chunks out of their lap times so easily? From the Bike World video, it sounds like he was able to best his fastest time w the 2022 bike rather quickly (tenths) but only made big chunks (seconds) after talking w data engineer. I don’t discount 4 seconds is massive. But would that have been possible w the 2022 bike if he had data acquisition and an engineer telling him where to find time? They’re churching up launch to make it sensational.

I’m just saying take all this with a grain of salt.



Electronics intervene and limit slip/power in order to maintain safety. Usually with less electronics you go faster at the expense of safety. DTC at level 10 will cut power sooner and more frequently than at 1. That’s with the 2022 bike.

Seems that the 2025 is just as fast with electronics on vs off. It’s not faster with less intervention, rather just harder to ride.

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Again, what rider at what circuit on what bike isn't going to potentially go faster with data debrief? I know that's making your point to a degree, but just hearing the journalists talk bout how easy the bike was for them to ride straight away (chad beat his time on the '22 on his third lap- doesn't make it a truth, but definitely leans into what their impressions were). So he beat his old lap record on his third flyer but you think without the data he wouldn't have gotten faster thru the day? Yes, Ducati is hyping the launch... like every launch. Strange it worked on you for the last generation but not this one? You have a V4- I don't know what gen but point stands- and great bike!


Regarding modern electronics/bikes, you are incorrect re: going faster. Only the tip top of the talent pool, in certain classes/series would be able to go faster with less electronics. And that would mostly be down to limited/rudimentary electronic strategies in their series. What happens when the electronics aren't working correctly in GP, World, MA SBK, etc? They go backwards, if they aren't crashing. Zero TC on a 215HP bike isn't gonna hook up or have a tire left at the end of a race, when the TC on the competition is limiting that spin to help preserve the tire and find grip. I think your idea on electronics is pretty accurate on much older bikes with rudimentary electronics and talented riders.

Paul G said:

What's not to love about the 25, in many respects this is a non conversation, if you are on the cusp of buying a new litrebike or upgrading it's a no brainer.

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I don't know man. It's good and brings a lot of cool neat features but it better do all that and more. With the price creep and what they're asking for a S model, let alone to put an exhaust on, it better have some cool tricks up it's sleeve. An S model with the Akra system is now $42,595.00 without labor to install it, dealer fees, or taxes. I mean, yikes...compared to 2021, that same cost would be $34,195.00.

If you took that $8,400 and invested in classes and track days you'd likely ride around the outside of someone on a 2025.

thorny said:

I may be wrong on this, but OEM Stylema brakes with some race pads are good enough to brake like Toprak and go over the front wheel. WSBK brakes are probably just better at dissipating heat and maybe feel and consistency to some degree hence safer for top level competitors. I did run Brembo T-drive rotors for a little bit with stock calipers, but felt no difference whatsoever to OEM rotors. They did make a cool clicky-clack noise when rolling the bike around which I liked.

1-2 second is significant for someone running pace within 10 seconds of a pro rider on a two-minute lap. For someone slower by 20 second or more - not at all. My 2 cents.

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I think most stock brakes can toss you over the bars, or if more talented, a nice rolling stoppie. You dont need Stylema with race pads for that- although I'm sure you'd have to pull a tad less hard. I think for your rotors, going to iron would have made a significant difference, but if its not a dedicated race bike, probably not a great choice.

I agree that 1-2 seconds for a talented track day person is significant if they are really that close to a legit pro rider time. The faster you go, the harder it is to find the time so 2 seconds at that pace would be a win, imo.


What I'm hearing from the reviews is that the bike gives them confidence. That is a huge aspect to riding, so I love hearing that. If you wanna go fast, you can't do it lacking confidence. And if the bike gives riders confidence that also equals more fun, which is why most of us ride, so I think that would be a great attribute.

thorny said:

Was this done before with the previous model with dyno results and sound test by any chance?

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Not by me but maybe by one of my customers

DAN_HALEN said:

Strange it worked on you for the last generation but not this one?

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25 bike is marginal gains. My argument all this time is that the 22 and 25 aren’t significantly different when it comes to performance, it looks worse, and this bike’s costs are out of control. 22 V4 seems to be the sweet spot. If I were to move to the 25, I’d lose $6k on depreciation, pay $3.5k more, it would only get me 1-2 sec, and an uglier bike with less character. No thanks.

Its competition has also caught up to the 25 V4. The new Fireblade is $4.5k cheaper has better ergos, better durability/serviceablility/parts availability, gets split throttles, real engine upgrades, and has experience with a DSSA.

There are some things that are just ugly. These ugly designs will always be ugly. They will not grow on us as some argue. A Panigale should produce passion and desire. This Panigale is ugly forever. It will never grow on me.

Broken egg Porsches? They never were desired on average. The only reason one might be enthusiastic about them today is if you can’t afford to buy a good one the generation before or after.

Beaver-tooth BMW? As ugly as the day they were revealed.

Remember in the 00s when all the car designers made cylindrical bulges stick out of many taillights like the end of soup cans? When did that ever look good? That detail is ugly every day of its existence.

Eyebrow Lincolns? Ugly every second since rolling off the factory floor.

Every Jeep Gladiator has the attractiveness of a hemorrhoid and always will, unless turned into a brodozer.

The 2025 will always look like a squished-faced bike that had all its teeth removed. Many of you will eventually see the emperor’s clothes, but it will remain ugly in perpetuity.

bp_SFV4 said:

I don't know man. It's good and brings a lot of cool neat features but it better do all that and more. With the price creep and what they're asking for a S model, let alone to put an exhaust on, it better have some cool tricks up it's sleeve. An S model with the Akra system is now $42,595.00 without labor to install it, dealer fees, or taxes. I mean, yikes...compared to 2021, that same cost would be $34,195.00.

If you took that $8,400 and invested in classes and track days you'd likely ride around the outside of someone on a 2025.

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The deal gets sweeter if you pick up a good used stock 22 V4S for $25-26k or one w an exhaust for $28k

If someone at Pecco’s level can gain a second then your average trackday rider should probably gain quite a bit more than that (obviously it’s harder to find improvements at that very top level).

As mentioned earlier, Chad has experience at the track and beat his PB in his first session. Nice to have the data and see where you can improve time but you’ve still got to do it and the bike seemed to give all riders a lot of confidence.

The price with exhaust will be a sticking point for some and the price is starting to get a bit silly. A base bike with forged wheels, exhaust, TPMS (I’d want that), DDA, DAVC Race Pro - about 45,000 Euros… And you still need to upgrade the suspension. If someone can’t or won’t spend that amount then there are plenty of other options. Taking money out of it, if you want the best then this would appear to be it.

The fact of the matter is that the new bike is better than the previous model - what manufacturer releases a new vehicle that isn’t better than the previous version… The rear brake feature is very cool, improving DDA (at last) and bringing brake data into it is great, I don’t doubt that chassis and swingarm improvements are significant and the consistent conclusion of the reviewers seemed to be that the bike is a big step forward and not just a minor evolution.

Improved braking systems for the guys at WDW would primarily have been to allow them to be consistent throughout the race, given how hard they use them.

FFS, most people on litre bikes at trackdays are running 20 seconds of the lap record! Half of the chads who own Panis sport chicken strips a mile wide and spend most of their time polishing or adding bling to impress the Starbucks crowd. They will be the first in line to buy the latest model because of course they do. When you already have a 98% bike its amazing how fragile the ego is to allow marketing to get you to jump on the 99% bike

Paul G said:

FFS, most people on litre bikes at trackdays are running 20 seconds of the lap record! Half of the chads who own Panis sport chicken strips a mile wide and spend most of their time polishing or adding bling to impress the Starbucks crowd. They will be the first in line to buy the latest model because of course they do. When you already have a 98% bike its amazing how fragile the ego is to allow marketing to get you to jump on the 99% bike

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I’d love to be 20 seconds off the lap record.

There’s nothing wrong with anyone buying the bike for whatever reason they want. If you can afford it then why not.

I think the point is to not get sucked into the marketing hype.