New Panigale V4 is ugly?

Red flag is probably too strong of a word. More dubious of Ducati’s marketing…. I think this bike is a technically a step forward but not as much as they’re telling us. I hope it’s a step forward. That’s progress.

I interpret this data engineer nonsense at the launch as you need to have an engineering degree to ride this bike fast rather than it being organic. You have to be told where and how to improve and if you don’t have that data you’d be none the wiser. Basically, if they didn’t have a dedicated data engineer, would they have been able to take chunks out of their lap times so easily? From the Bike World video, it sounds like he was able to best his fastest time w the 2022 bike rather quickly (tenths) but only made big chunks (seconds) after talking w data engineer. I don’t discount 4 seconds is massive. But would that have been possible w the 2022 bike if he had data acquisition and an engineer telling him where to find time? They’re churching up launch to make it sensational.

I’m just saying take all this with a grain of salt.

DAN_HALEN said:

Why would a rider go faster with less electronics on a brand new, cutting edge Super Bike?

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Electronics intervene and limit slip/power in order to maintain safety. Usually with less electronics you go faster at the expense of safety. DTC at level 10 will cut power sooner and more frequently than at 1. That’s with the 2022 bike.

Seems that the 2025 is just as fast with electronics on vs off. It’s not faster with less intervention, rather just harder to ride.

The bike is phenomenal, and this is expected from Ducati.

You gotta give them jornos some credit for their work, they all looked spent at the end of the day. To properly understands the bike and get used to it and set everything to one's liking (mechanicals, ergos and electronics) takes more than a day. Add to it having to film the content, unfamiliar track, talking to a bunch of people and then process all the info from the data guy comparing your data to the pro rider and having to improve the time. This is the one thing that stood out to me. Baron would have been munching on the refreshments, talking lots of smack with sexual innuendos and jokes on any other launch, but here they had to work.

I enjoyed watching real time telemetry on the dash of Valia's lap in Neevsey's video. The fact that Pecco can turn a lap on a production bike matching Bradl's MotoGP time is insane IMO. And yes, the electronics are there to keep everything tidy - smooth is fast. They became more refined, of course they did, and this is perhaps the biggest change on the entire bike that can help fast mortals to post better time.

thorny said:

The bike is phenomenal, and this is expected from Ducati.

You gotta give them jornos some credit for their work, they all looked spent at the end of the day. To properly understands the bike and get used to it and set everything to one's liking (mechanicals, ergos and electronics) takes more than a day. Add to it having to film the content, unfamiliar track, talking to a bunch of people and then process all the info from the data guy comparing your data to the pro rider and having to improve the time. This is the one thing that stood out to me. Baron would have been munching on the refreshments, talking lots of smack with sexual innuendos and jokes on any other launch, but here they had to work.

I enjoyed watching real time telemetry on the dash of Valia's lap in Neevsey's video. The fact that Pecco can turn a lap on a production bike matching Bradl's MotoGP time is insane IMO. And yes, the electronics are there to keep everything tidy - smooth is fast. They became more refined, of course they did, and this is perhaps the biggest change on the entire bike that can help fast mortals to post better time.

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Baron certainly seemed more focussed and Chad has ridden there a lot and improved. I think people underestimate how fast Baron is.

It was certainly helpful for them to have the data guy interpreting and helping, but it does show the value of data. Having brake data on the DDA is a big step forward and I believe it is wireless as well. It would be lovely if it connected to an iPad… I think TPMS could be really useful as well.

I’m sure the rear brake thing helped as well – a lot of them seemed to think so.

spooky said:

I’m sure the rear brake thing helped as well – a lot of them seemed to think so.

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Giving this ability to a guy who does not know how to do this is a big thing. Hard thing to learn to use well. Best learned on dirtbikes. Simply will allow you to go faster. That and the revised ergo's are the most significant things in this release IMHO.

baggerman said:

Giving this ability to a guy who does not know how to do this is a big thing. Hard thing to learn to use well. Best learned on dirtbikes. Simply will allow you to go faster. That and the revised ergo's are the most significant things in this release IMHO.

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Agreed. They certainly have a lot of data to draw upon. To make the application of this seamless is quite impressive. There’s a lot to like about the new bike.

baggerman said:

Giving this ability to a guy who does not know how to do this is a big thing. Hard thing to learn to use well. Best learned on dirtbikes. Simply will allow you to go faster. That and the revised ergo's are the most significant things in this release IMHO.

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I agree.

baggerman said:

Giving this ability to a guy who does not know how to do this is a big thing. Hard thing to learn to use well. Best learned on dirtbikes. Simply will allow you to go faster. That and the revised ergo's are the most significant things in this release IMHO.

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I had the experience of installing a left-hand operated rear brake (standard lever next to clutch) on KTM 500EXCF dirt bike and although my goal was simply to use that in hard enduro very steep terrain, I found it was super useful as a steering tool in fast twisty single track. That being said, using it on the superbike is an entirely different ball game and I think only about 1-2% of all track day riders could do.

Ergos also is a big step in the right direction IMO.

thorny said:

I had the experience of installing a left-hand operated rear brake (standard lever next to clutch) on KTM 500EXCF dirt bike and although my goal was simply to use that in hard enduro very steep terrain, I found it was super useful as a steering tool in fast twisty single track. That being said, using it on the superbike is an entirely different ball game and I think only about 1-2% of all track day riders could do.

Ergos also is a big step in the right direction IMO.

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All that dirt bike muscle memory transfers to the pavement which is a really good thing.

spooky said:

Baron certainly seemed more focussed and Chad has ridden there a lot and improved. I think people underestimate how fast Baron is.

It was certainly helpful for them to have the data guy interpreting and helping, but it does show the value of data. Having brake data on the DDA is a big step forward and I believe it is wireless as well. It would be lovely if it connected to an iPad… I think TPMS could be really useful as well.

I’m sure the rear brake thing helped as well – a lot of them seemed to think so.

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Baron posted 1:44'.44 on his first outing. Chad mentioned low 45's vs 49.3 on the 2022 bike and with some experience on this track. Alessandro Valia's time with a lot of experience on the bike and circuit was 1:40.8 in Neeves's video. Indeed, respectable from BVG.

thorny said:

Baron posted 1:44'.44 on his first outing. Chad mentioned low 45's vs 49.3 on the 2022 bike and with some experience on this track. Alessandro Valia's time with a lot of experience on the bike and circuit was 1:40.8 in Neeves's video. Indeed, respectable from BVG.

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The STANDARD 22 V4S without all the whiz bang electronics is only a second off the 25 bike which wasnt standard as Neevesy inaccurately states. The 25 RoC bikes had WSBK calipers and rotors.

For context, the lap record around Vallelunga is 1m36s which is similar to Misano. So logically the 22 V4S should only be a second a lap slower around Vallelunga than the 25 but for some odd reason it isn’t… Chad’s video implies that the 25 bike is 4-5 sec faster which is incorrect. This says that having data and a dedicated engineer buys you 3-4 secs and the bike is another second. The 20 to 22 difference was only a sec and the 22 to 25 bike follows a similar trend. It’s not as revolutionary as one might initially think.

Also it puts into perspective me being 15 sec off lap record around Laguna Seca. These professional motorcyclists are 10 sec off pace with a dedicated data engineer (Chad was 13 sec off the pace with the 22). I’m less disappointed in myself

I think Renny was the fasted guy out that day besides Valia obvsly - def faster then BVG

KarlKani said:

I think Renny was the fasted guy out that day besides Valia obvsly - def faster then BVG

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Looks like he posted 1:43.59 lap on the Instagram and the same lap is on the youtube. Allegedly, this was one of his opening laps, but no other later laps that could have been quicker were made public in that case.

Found this comment on youtube:
Started off at a 1:50 (first time I'd seen the track), then consistent 46's. After lunch, with the changes made, it was consistent 1:43s with a fastest of 1:43.2. For reference, Italian Superstock 1000 does a pole of 1:36s with 10-15th around 1:42-43s

SuperDomestique said:

The STANDARD 22 V4S without all the whiz bang electronics is only a second off the 25 bike which wasnt standard as Neevesy inaccurately states. The 25 RoC bikes had WSBK calipers and rotors.

For context, the lap record around Vallelunga is 1m36s which is similar to Misano. So logically the 22 V4S should only be a second a lap slower around Vallelunga than the 25 but for some odd reason it isn’t… Chad’s video implies that the 25 bike is 4-5 sec faster which is incorrect. This says that having data and a dedicated engineer buys you 3-4 secs and the bike is another second. The 20 to 22 difference was only a sec and the 22 to 25 bike follows a similar trend. It’s not as revolutionary as one might initially think.

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22V4S has plenty of whiz bang electronics, and yes it is well established that for a pro rider 25 model is "about 1 second faster". Pecco mentioned in one of the interviews that he still "had to find ways to turn the new bike". WSBK brakes do not make them go any faster vs stock, but it is not a bad idea on the bikes given to elite riders for a fun race.

I think Chad is conveying 25 bike was 4-5 seconds faster for him at this particular circuit, and I am sure some tips from the data analysis helped him find time. At the same time, I would not give all the credit to the data guy for the improvement. It is not a difficult to see on the data that "you need to brake later and accelerate harder and sooner" or keep throttle pinned through a fast corner, but applying that on the track is not so easy. I think this format motivated them to go harder, Valia's coaching helped some, but the majority of individual improvement still most likely came from the bike. My opinion, after watching this round of reviews, non-pro advanced riders' benefit is more than 1 second and perhaps 2 or even more on a 1:40 lap, in other words, significant.

thorny said:

22V4S has plenty of whiz bang electronics, and yes it is well established that for a pro rider 25 model is "about 1 second faster". Pecco mentioned in one of the interviews that he still "had to find ways to turn the new bike". WSBK brakes do not make them go any faster vs stock, but it is not a bad idea on the bikes given to elite riders for a fun race.

I think Chad is conveying 25 bike was 4-5 seconds faster for him at this particular circuit, and I am sure some tips from the data analysis helped him find time. At the same time, I would not give all the credit to the data guy for the improvement. It is not a difficult to see on the data that "you need to brake later and accelerate harder and sooner" or keep throttle pinned through a fast corner, but applying that on the track is not so easy. I think this format motivated them to go harder, Valia's coaching helped some, but the majority of individual improvement still most likely came from the bike. My opinion, after watching this round of reviews, non-pro advanced riders' benefit is more than 1 second and perhaps 2 or even more on a 1:40 lap, in other words, significant.

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Why don’t you think WSBK brakes can make you faster? You brake later, carry more corner speed, and can accelerate faster because of this. It’s probably worth a few tenths or they wouldn’t put them on WSBK bikes.

I’d argue that a pro rider can exploit a bikes limit more so therefore any deficiency would be more apparent and any desirable trait would be exploited. They’re also more consistent. An average rider will be more inconsistent and be able to improve just with running more laps.

Also 1-2% difference is significant?

SuperDomestique said:

Why don’t you think WSBK brakes can make you faster? You brake later, carry more corner speed, and can accelerate faster because of this. It’s probably worth a few tenths or they wouldn’t put them on WSBK bikes.

I’d argue that a pro rider can exploit a bikes limit more so therefore any deficiency would be more apparent and any desirable trait would be exploited. They’re also more consistent. An average rider will be more inconsistent and be able to improve just with running more laps.

Also 1-2% difference is significant?

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I may be wrong on this, but OEM Stylema brakes with some race pads are good enough to brake like Toprak and go over the front wheel. WSBK brakes are probably just better at dissipating heat and maybe feel and consistency to some degree hence safer for top level competitors. I did run Brembo T-drive rotors for a little bit with stock calipers, but felt no difference whatsoever to OEM rotors. They did make a cool clicky-clack noise when rolling the bike around which I liked.

1-2 second is significant for someone running pace within 10 seconds of a pro rider on a two-minute lap. For someone slower by 20 second or more - not at all. My 2 cents.

I'd like to see a 22 model on the same day, same data engineer, same rider and see the difference. I like the reports of being easier on tires

They were not wsbk brakes

KarlKani said:

They were not wsbk brakes

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Were they stock brakes?

Who cares about lap times in the real world where most riders live? In the rarified air of those who can afford to mostly track, race and crash the latest model Pani of which this board has a far greater proportion then sure, 1 second is a very big deal indeed. All other things being equal if there are two bikes on the floor Im picking the 25 over the 24 all day long. That does not mean the 24 is "slow" because the rider still makes the biggest difference. I love the auto rear trail braking feature, literally magic on wheels to me who still doesn't power slide the rear using DSC. What's not to love about the 25, in many respects this is a non conversation, if you are on the cusp of buying a new litrebike or upgrading it's a no brainer. 25 is good looking IMHO, obviously fast with a stack of neat features compared the previous model but I am no hurry to upgrade because my bike still rides beautifully, looks and sounds great plus I have shitloads of spares like fairings, pegs, bars, engine parts etc so its not just about getting the latest and greatest.

SuperDomestique said:

Red flag is probably too strong of a word. More dubious of Ducati’s marketing…. I think this bike is a technically a step forward but not as much as they’re telling us. I hope it’s a step forward. That’s progress.

I interpret this data engineer nonsense at the launch as you need to have an engineering degree to ride this bike fast rather than it being organic. You have to be told where and how to improve and if you don’t have that data you’d be none the wiser. Basically, if they didn’t have a dedicated data engineer, would they have been able to take chunks out of their lap times so easily? From the Bike World video, it sounds like he was able to best his fastest time w the 2022 bike rather quickly (tenths) but only made big chunks (seconds) after talking w data engineer. I don’t discount 4 seconds is massive. But would that have been possible w the 2022 bike if he had data acquisition and an engineer telling him where to find time? They’re churching up launch to make it sensational.

I’m just saying take all this with a grain of salt.



Electronics intervene and limit slip/power in order to maintain safety. Usually with less electronics you go faster at the expense of safety. DTC at level 10 will cut power sooner and more frequently than at 1. That’s with the 2022 bike.

Seems that the 2025 is just as fast with electronics on vs off. It’s not faster with less intervention, rather just harder to ride.

Click to expand...

Again, what rider at what circuit on what bike isn't going to potentially go faster with data debrief? I know that's making your point to a degree, but just hearing the journalists talk bout how easy the bike was for them to ride straight away (chad beat his time on the '22 on his third lap- doesn't make it a truth, but definitely leans into what their impressions were). So he beat his old lap record on his third flyer but you think without the data he wouldn't have gotten faster thru the day? Yes, Ducati is hyping the launch... like every launch. Strange it worked on you for the last generation but not this one? You have a V4- I don't know what gen but point stands- and great bike!


Regarding modern electronics/bikes, you are incorrect re: going faster. Only the tip top of the talent pool, in certain classes/series would be able to go faster with less electronics. And that would mostly be down to limited/rudimentary electronic strategies in their series. What happens when the electronics aren't working correctly in GP, World, MA SBK, etc? They go backwards, if they aren't crashing. Zero TC on a 215HP bike isn't gonna hook up or have a tire left at the end of a race, when the TC on the competition is limiting that spin to help preserve the tire and find grip. I think your idea on electronics is pretty accurate on much older bikes with rudimentary electronics and talented riders.