Professionals Race the S

BP PanigaleV4S · Jul 26, 2022

I thought this 3 and 5 second times between WSBK and MotoGP were qualifying best hot laps which are much more ideal conditions than a race.

I'm new to this track thing, but I doubt many lap records are set during a race since other riders have a say in your lap time by denying your perfect line, apex to the turns etc.

endodoc · Jul 26, 2022

Craig as usual brings up some very questions. Look it’s a brand sponsored event with Corse shop prepped bikes with who knows what done to them. Not at all taking away the awesome performance of modern sbk but when I listen to the Pata team and Motorapido talk about 30-40 hp gains through head work, exhaust, and tuning via a 20k electronics platform then throw in 40k in suspension etc I’m somewhat skeptical as I would be regardless of the brand. I mean at this point, with some modest mods, just can the WSBK all together and do a stock mod category for all the brands because according to this demo they’re not getting a whole lot for 200k in parts and 7 figures in a racing budget.

craig bush · Jul 26, 2022

Paul G said:
5 or even 3 seconds is huge, over a 26 lap race in GP.... you get the picture!

craig bush said:
What’s the spread over the entire field for a typical wsbk and MotoGP race?

I just checked. In 2021, the spread in MotoGP qualifying was 4.5 seconds. In wsbk for fast lap, it was 4 seconds.

Does it seem feasible that a stock v4 can turn a lap nearly as fast as the slowest qualifier in a MotoGP race?

craig bush · Jul 26, 2022

bp_SFV4 said:
I thought this 3 and 5 second times between WSBK and MotoGP were qualifying best hot laps which are much more ideal conditions than a race.

I'm new to this track thing, but I doubt many lap records are set during a race since other riders have a say in your lap time by denying your perfect line, apex to the turns etc.

That’s correct. That’s why they track “race” and “outright” lap records.

BP PanigaleV4S · Jul 26, 2022

craig bush said:
Does it seem feasible that a stock v4 can turn a lap nearly as fast as the slowest qualifier in a MotoGP race?

Software (human) over hardware. The most talented MotoGP rider on a "stock" V4 can produce a lap time nearly as fast as a lesser talented rider on a better bike? All day long.

30-40 hp gains through head work, exhaust, and tuning

Maybe in the 1990s. We are at the limits a physics at some point. Removing all of the nanny state emissions and noise BS will do more than a port and valve job on a cylinder head in year 2022.

craig bush · Jul 26, 2022

bp_SFV4 said:
Software (human) over hardware. The most talented MotoGP rider on a "stock" V4 can produce a lap time nearly as fast as a lesser talented rider on a better bike? All day long.

A “better” bike? Rossi’s 2021 GP bike is merely “better” than a stock 22 v4?

Pecco can lap a stock v4 nearly as fast as Rossi’s qualifying lap from 2021 - that’s the assertion?

craig bush · Jul 26, 2022

bp_SFV4 said:
… Removing all of the nanny state emissions and noise BS will do more than a port and valve job on a cylinder head in year 2022.

You have data supporting that?

BP PanigaleV4S · Jul 26, 2022

I don't have times to reference for comparison, or track conditions etc etc.

But, I'd argue Pecco in 2022 is better than Rossi in 2021.

BP PanigaleV4S · Jul 26, 2022

craig bush said:
You have data supporting that?

I love you buddy.

At some point we are at the limits of physics. There is only so much you can do in a NA engine on pump gas.

Is a catalytic converter more detrimental to performance than not lapping a valve?

All of the noise reducing BS added to the bikes to make some arbitrary drive by dB limit less, worse than the added heat?

I'm tracking with you, but 30-40 HP from exhaust, head and tuning is a pipe dream in 2022. We are starting from a much higher point.

I had a 2000 Celica GTS which had 180HP from a 1.8L engine. The stock Panigale V4 is...what? 214 HP from 1.1L?

craig bush · Jul 26, 2022

bp_SFV4 said:
I love you buddy.

At some point we are at the limits of physics. There is only so much you can do in a NA engine on pump gas.

Is a catalytic converter more detrimental to performance than not lapping a valve?

All of the noise reducing BS added to the bikes to make some arbitrary drive by dB limit less, worse than the added heat?

I'm tracking with you, but 30-40 HP from exhaust, head and tuning is a pipe dream in 2022. We are starting from a much higher point.

I had a 2000 Celica GTS which had 180HP from a 1.8L engine. The stock Panigale V4 is...what? 214 HP from 1.1L?

Mutual respect bro.

A v4 rs wsbk makes ~250 to the tire.

A stock v4 makes ~195.

What’s a v4 with filter, exhaust, and tune make - 215 being charitable?

That’s 20 from being derestricted. Where’s the other 35 coming from?

craig bush · Jul 26, 2022

bp_SFV4 said:
I don't have times to reference for comparison, or track conditions etc etc.

But, I'd argue Pecco in 2022 is better than Rossi in 2021.

I suspect the differential between the stock 22 v4 and the 21 yamaha gp bike is wider than the differential between 22 Pecco and 21 Rossi.

No way Pecco on a stock v4 beats Rossi on a Yamaha gp21.

endodoc · Jul 26, 2022

bp_SFV4 said:
Software (human) over hardware. The most talented MotoGP rider on a "stock" V4 can produce a lap time nearly as fast as a lesser talented rider on a better bike? All day long.

Maybe in the 1990s. We are at the limits a physics at some point. Removing all of the nanny state emissions and noise BS will do more than a port and valve job on a cylinder head in year 2022.

I suggest you go and watch the Yamaha video where Paul Denning explains just what I wrote and it’s recent. So I guess the 10s of hours spent porting, polishing, flow dynamics the Wsbk teams spend is a waste of time. Idiots.

DV4 · Jul 26, 2022

There is only so much contact patch

DV4 · Jul 26, 2022

The most gains are made on the straight either through acceleration or braking.

craig bush · Jul 26, 2022

Paul G said:
There is only so much contact patch

Exactly. That’s why in nearly every form of road racing, tires are the single greatest determinant of performance.

Also why I said I wonder if they might have been running a wsbk spec tire in the race of champions.

DV4 · Jul 26, 2022

craig bush said:
Exactly. That’s why in nearly every form of road racing, tires are the single greatest determinant of performance.

Also why I said I wonder if they might have been running a wsbk spec tire in the race of champions.

If you follow the history of road racing, tires improve and cause issues with frames, suspension elements. Development occurs then tires improve again and so on. Last iteration in GP was the new Michelin rear which effectively ended several careers etc.

If you shod the S in GP tires you would find its limits very quickly and not in a nice way.

craig bush · Jul 26, 2022

Paul G said:
If you follow the history of road racing, tires improve and cause issues with frames, suspension elements. Development occurs then tires improve again and so on. Last iteration in GP was the new Michelin rear which effectively ended several careers etc.

If you shod the S in GP tires you would find its limits very quickly and not in a nice way.

I’m inclined to agree - no other single factor affects performance more than tires.

endodoc · Jul 26, 2022

craig bush said:
I’m inclined to agree - no other single factor affects performance more than tires.

100% agree, have you seen the lap times when they just run on the rims? Considerably slower.

RickD996 · Jul 26, 2022

If you're racing, professionally, and it costs you £80k to go 0.5s quicker per lap, you spend the money.
Value for money is not a consideration, performance is everything.

Last weekend, Tommy Bridewell's fastest BSB race lap of Brands Hatch GP was 1:25. He was riding a V4RS. The bike must cost approx £150k+
The team's budget for the year is c£800k, for 11 race weekends - £73k per round.
Two weekends ago, I raced my 22 base V4 at Brands Hatch GP. Fastest race lap was 1:30.
The bike owes me £22k.
My budget for the season is c£25k - £3k per round.
A front BSB Superstock rider would probably get my bike down to 1:27.

Going faster, at the top level, is very hard, and very expensive.

Alkhater · Jul 26, 2022

endodoc said:
Craig as usual brings up some very questions. Look it’s a brand sponsored event with Corse shop prepped bikes with who knows what done to them. Not at all taking away the awesome performance of modern sbk but when I listen to the Pata team and Motorapido talk about 30-40 hp gains through head work, exhaust, and tuning via a 20k electronics platform then throw in 40k in suspension etc I’m somewhat skeptical as I would be regardless of the brand. I mean at this point, with some modest mods, just can the WSBK all together and do a stock mod category for all the brands because according to this demo they’re not getting a whole lot for 200k in parts and 7 figures in a racing budget.

Your whole premise is wrong!

The purpose of WSBK budget and modifications is to create a competitive field of bikes and so that each team gains an edge over the the other no matter how marginal that edge is.

It's about creativity and innovation... the essence of competition.

Not how much faster they can get over stock.

Professionals Race the S

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