Professionals Race the S

RickD996 said:

If you're racing, professionally, and it costs you £80k to go 0.5s quicker per lap, you spend the money.
Value for money is not a consideration, performance is everything.

Last weekend, Tommy Bridewell's fastest BSB race lap of Brands Hatch GP was 1:25. He was riding a V4RS. The bike must cost approx £150k+
The team's budget for the year is c£800k, for 11 race weekends - £73k per round.
Two weekends ago, I raced my 22 base V4 at Brands Hatch GP. Fastest race lap was 1:30.
The bike owes me £22k.
My budget for the season is c£25k - £3k per round.
A front BSB Superstock rider would probably get my bike down to 1:27.

Going faster, at the top level, is very hard, and very expensive.

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This pretty much sums it up.

craig bush said:

Exactly. That’s why in nearly every form of road racing, tires are the single greatest determinant of performance.

Also why I said I wonder if they might have been running a wsbk spec tire in the race of champions.

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Obviously they're using SBK spec (or close to) tires... Which i believe can be bought by anyone.

This does not take anything away from how impressive these stock bikes are and the level of optimisation they're at from the showroom.

$30k bike and what? $10k in track prep? exhaust, springs, tires, pads etc.. for 95% performance of a top level equipment. I'll take it!

To me the most impressive thing was the Electronic suspension working for these guys, that and even for 8 laps the bikes didnt overheat...

craig bush said:

Mutual respect bro.

A v4 rs wsbk makes ~250 to the tire.

A stock v4 makes ~195.

What’s a v4 with filter, exhaust, and tune make - 215 being charitable?

That’s 20 from being derestricted. Where’s the other 35 coming from?

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Ducati's WSBK makes 235bhp at the crank.

https://www.ducati.com/ww/en/racing/superbike/home
I'd think 250 at the tire, taking into account driveline loss at 12-15% (which is a low) which would be 246-255 HP at the tire, is MotoGP range. I'd bet there's significant electronic intervention going on to keep that in check.

KarlKani said:

To me the most impressive thing was the Electronic suspension working for these guys, that and even for 8 laps the bikes didnt overheat...

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It would be nice to know more about their setup for sure.

Allegedly, Ducati is auctioning off all of the bikes. They'll probably all go to rich collectors but it would be cool to see how they prepped OEM bikes for this event.

bp_SFV4 said:

Ducati's WSBK makes 235bhp at the crank.

https://www.ducati.com/ww/en/racing/superbike/home

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235 at the crank is ~210 to the tire. You think that’s realistic?

My base v4 made ~195 to the tire with no mods. A stock R makes more than that.

bp_SFV4 said:

I'd think 250 at the tire, taking into account driveline loss at 12-15% (which is a low) which would be 246-255 HP at the tire, is MotoGP range. I'd bet there's significant electronic intervention going on to keep that in check.

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MotoGP bikes are reportedly near 300 to the tire.

Pecco’s fastest Q time was 1m36.1s at WDW.

Bautista’s pole Q time for Rd 4 at Misano was 1m33.3s.

Alkhater said:

Obviously they're using SBK spec (or close to) tires... Which i believe can be bought by anyone.

This does not take anything away from how impressive these stock bikes are and the level of optimisation they're at from the showroom.

$30k bike and what? $10k in track prep? exhaust, springs, tires, pads etc.. for 95% performance of a top level equipment. I'll take it!

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I haven’t said I think the stock bikes are unimpressive.

I’m saying I don’t accept that Pecco is nearly as fast on a mildly modified v4s as Rossi was on the Yamaha gp21.

craig bush said:

I haven’t said I think the stock bikes are unimpressive.

I’m saying I don’t accept that Pecco is nearly as fast on a mildly modified v4s as Rossi was on the Yamaha gp21.

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Believe it.

Pecco’s Q2 pole time last year at Misano was 1m33.0s. Rossi’s Q time was 1m38.3s

sacrilege!

Sounds like a bunch of women at a luncheon.

craig bush said:

235 at the crank is ~210 to the tire. You think that’s realistic?

My base v4 made ~195 to the tire with no mods. A stock R makes more than that.

MotoGP bikes are reportedly near 300 to the tire.

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I think 210 HP at the tire is more realistic than 300 HP at the tire, yes. It is an R engine after all. I'm not up on every tech rule in WSBK, but I don't think there's too much they can do with the internals and they didn't port and polish their way to 25% more horsepower.

Not to take too much away from the engine's performance, but I bet the WSBK version of an R is faster than the showroom version because of tires, suspension, brakes and weight reduction.

endodoc said:

Sounds like a bunch of women at a luncheon.

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lol

SuperDomestique said:

Believe it.

Pecco’s Q2 pole time last year at Misano was 1m33.0s. Rossi’s Q time was 1m38.3s

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For clarity - my opinion has nothing to do with Pecco or Rossi. I don’t accept that any MotoGP rider will be within 5 seconds of their gp bike lap time on a nearly stock v4 on commercially available production tires.

craig bush said:

...on commercially available production tires.

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Who's to say they were?

bp_SFV4 said:

I think 210 HP at the tire is more realistic than 300 HP at the tire, yes. It is an R engine after all. I'm not up on every tech rule in WSBK, but I don't think there's too much they can do with the internals and they didn't port and polish their way to 25% more horsepower.

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I think you’re confused - I said a MotoGP bike is near 300 to the tire, not a wsbk.

And really? You really think the factory spends $250k and only gets ~15 whp more than a showroom stock base v4?

A base v4 with filter, exhaust, and tune makes 205-210. So the factory wsbk engine build nets no power gain??

bp_SFV4 said:

Not to take too much away from the engine's performance, but I bet the WSBK version of an R is faster than the showroom version because of tires, suspension, brakes and weight reduction.

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Where’s your data?

You or I can “bet” whatever we want, and it’s fine - bet whatever you want.

I was told by a source I consider credible that a factory sbk makes ~250 to the tire on a dyno.

bp_SFV4 said:

Who's to say they were?

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Maybe go back and ensure you’ve read every post? I based the premise of my skepticism on the assertion that these are mildly modified stock bikes NOT running wsbk spec tires.

Ever "over driven" a vehicle? I have with the open wheeled Formula Dodge series Skip Barber used to run, easy to get a good a qualifying time that was competitive, but no way I could abuse the equipment like that over a race distance without a MASSIVE drop in competitiveness. Sounds like these guys were seriously overpowering the equipment, cooking the brakes, and I am sure destroying the tires in the process, to achieve those lap times in those conditions.

All the dough spent on the racing class of bikes is for endurance at the knife's edge of performance. Comparing lap times between modern bikes and their racing brethren will have a minimal variance due to the fact that you can only put so much energy down through the contact patch....250HP does you no good in a 50mph hairpin....hell, probably only well into triple digits is that much juice even available through the ECU. Lap times are less important than winning, and if you don't win what is the gap to the winner is all that matters. Zip around a V4S for 22 laps while chasing a BSB/Stock100/WSBK and I am fairly sure you will cross the line close to a minute after the other riders does....that is a lot!

Not sure how many people remember when F1 rules allowed some manufacturers to have "qualifying" engines. Juan Pablo's Williams BMW V10 900+HP was good for an out lap, a hot lap, maybe two, then it was toast. You could special purpose a bike for single lap times, but that is not racing.

What did impressive me was how dominant Pecco was. Italian marketing or pure talent? If it was pure talent to whoop the rest of the field the way he did I am pretty damned impressed. That is being .01% of the .01% and why his seat is secure at Ducati (for now....gotta put that little Ibiza incident to rest).

If you make a race bike, are you going to tell all your competitors exactly how much power you're making?

But, for marketing purposes, you HAVE to make more than the street bike. But you don't want to say you make too much more

I know a guy who has a V4RS motor in his V4R. He hates it. It's way too fast....

RickD996 said:

If you make a race bike, are you going to tell all your competitors exactly how much power you're making?

But, for marketing purposes, you HAVE to make more than the street bike. But you don't want to say you make too much more

I know a guy who has a V4RS motor in his V4R. He hates it. It's way too fast....

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Exactly. The source I’m referencing, quoted numbers from a dyno session of an actual factory sbk, not from a press release.

Where is the difference in the S vs R? Bore? Stroke? Both?

craig bush said:

Maybe go back and ensure you’ve read every post? I based the premise of my skepticism on the assertion that these are mildly modified stock bikes NOT running wsbk spec tires.

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I was trying to agree with you.