Stock 2023 V4R front master cylinder

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andyb said:
Could have bought and fitted them by now….
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Where is the fun that?! 🫣

Upgrading a bike is very much like making love to a beautiful woman… First, one must establish that the parts are of sufficient quality. Then, you must establish that the parts are available to you. Upon receiving access to those parts one must carefully ensure that the aforementioned parts are a suitable fit. Only then can you ride her.

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spooky said:
I think this is a good opportunity to replace clip-ons with something longer. I often found myself gripping the ends of the bars and having to move my hands to a narrower position so I reckon it would be useful to move the grips further out to where my hands naturally seem to want to be.

Spider clip-ons look ok and seem very popular but I’m also liking the look of the ones from Extreme Components (integrated steering damper support and some vertical adjustment available) and Melotti Racing (adding the top triple would allow use of the markings on the top triple and clip-ons to easily get them the same on both sides). These would require a support for the steering damper but there are plenty of those around. No vertical adjustment on the Melotti ones so I’m probably leaning toward the Extreme Components ones. I like Melotti stuff though. Apparently you can put clip-ons on with the OEM top triple and the few mm it moves them down isn’t really an issue. Probably others have a different opinion on this.

I like the look of the Jetprime switches and I might get their QA and just take the whole OEM lot off (except for the clutch lever) and replace it.

I fancy trying the 17mm master cylinder that Brembo recommend, along with nearly everyone here - I’ll probably just get the 17RCS Corsa Corta unless the RR happens to become available fairly soon. It looks like the SP2 and V4R setups are very much the same except for the SP2 having the Stylema R (non-R on the V4R) and an adjustable master cylinder on the SP2 but still 16mm, so the OEM setup on the V4R should feel the same as I am used to and I’ll already have a point of comparison when I change to 17mm.

Seems like a plan is coming together… Must stop looking at GP4-MS… 🤣
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Best clipons in the world. Solid, stiff, VERY well engineered, and because they have four screws you can remove them without taking the triple clamp off, useful if you want to try different offsets and riser heights for ergonomics
 
Getting my order together…

So far I fancy the Melotti upper triple and Extreme Components clip-ons, all in black (the clip-ons have the fitting for the steering damper).

I’ll be getting the Jetprime QA throttle and their switches, and probably their remote adjuster as well. I’m not sure the QA will be better than the OEM but I can take it all off the bike and set it aside and put all new stuff on and new grips (probably grey Domino A010).

I’ve been offered GP4-MS while I’m at it and I’ll probably treat myself.

Back to the main topic - master cylinders. I have been very surprised at quite how many people have recommended a 19mm master cylinder. Two suppliers reckon that works better (and 17 if I went with RR calipers, which I won’t). Given how many people have recommended this I’m tempted to go with that recommendation. That would bring the choice down to the 19RCS Corsa Corta or the 19x18 billet one.

Thoughts (on the caliper side of things, not how I should spend my money, won’t make you faster, blah, blah, blah)?
 
Have you even ridden the V4R with the stock brake setup? What’s the problem with it?

They’re both 19 mm so they should feel the same like bagger has said countless times. It’s physics. And feeling the difference between forged and billet is all placebo. What you’ll notice more is the right ergos more than anything. I’ve got a feeling that spooky just likes to hear himself talk
 
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I’d love to hear what a stock V4R brake setup is like! It sounds atrocious and surprising it’s so different from my V4S’s setup.

From your lack of answering the question, I’ll take that as you don’t know. You’re literally changing a component that you don’t even know if you really need to change.
 
Original R is 16/21. For comparison area is 64 times PI (I'll ignore PI). 19RCS area 90.25 so 90.25/64= 1.41 RCS is 18 pivot vs 21 which lowers force. 1.41 times 18/21= 1.208. The lever requires 20 percent more force, way wooden. The 17RCS is about 7.5 percent higher with the 20 pivot and the PRS 18/19 (belt drive superbikes) is about 15 percent. There's a reason why the RCS 17 or Corta Corsa 17 is preferred with the stock calipers.
 
baggerman said:
Original R is 16/21. For comparison area is 64 times PI (I'll ignore PI). 19RCS area 90.25 so 90.25/64= 1.41 RCS is 18 pivot vs 21 which lowers force. 1.41 times 18/21= 1.208. The lever requires 20 percent more force, way wooden. The 17RCS is about 7.5 percent higher with the 20 pivot and the PRS 18/19 (belt drive superbikes) is about 15 percent. There's a reason why the RCS 17 or Corta Corsa 17 is preferred with the stock calipers.
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I’ve been running the SP2 at 16/20, which is pretty close to what the V4R has, so I have some idea how it will feel. It felt quite soft and a lot of lever travel was required. I needed to wind the lever out quite far so that I had room to pull the lever (and I don’t think I hit the brakes particularly hard). Same calipers except for the vented pistons on the SP2, which are irrelevant to this discussion.

Brembo recommend 17 BUT Ducati ignore that and provide 16 (maybe they feel it’s safer and even more so on the street). A LOT of people and both suppliers I am speaking with strongly recommend the 19. One guy uses the GP 19x18 (which wouldn’t be any different for me than the billet 19x18) and reported that it had a load more feel than the RCS he previously used, gave him a lot more confidence and doesn’t feel wooden at all. A couple of other people have reported the same using 19.

I get what you are saying about the mathematics but I do find it interesting that I am getting some consistent recommendations for 19 from the suppliers (who have both in stock) and some decent riders that I know. Have you tried these with Stylema or GP4-MS calipers to come to the conclusion that the 19 does feel wooden or are you basing that conclusion on mathematics?
 
So the belt drive master 18/19 gives you 15% if the 7.5% feels too mushy. That master uses the same casting as the V4's and is titanium like the V4's. Direct bolt on. I have one of these lying about. I'd like the lever firmer but not 15% so I'll bush the lever pivot hole and move the pivot to 18. Which gives me about 8.5%. I haven't tried a 19 RCS.
 
baggerman said:
So the belt drive master 18/19 gives you 15% if the 7.5% feels too mushy. That master uses the same casting as the V4's and is titanium like the V4's. Direct bolt on. I have one of these lying about. I'd like the lever firmer but not 15% so I'll bush the lever pivot hole and move the pivot to 18. Which gives me about 8.5%. I haven't tried a 19 RCS.
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‘Belt drive master’?
baggerman said:
BTW the 16/20 is softer than the stock one by about 5%.
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Not a huge margin and similar enough that I’m doing the right thing by changing it.
 
Bevels, belts, chains the evolution of Ducati camdrives. That master's off the 1098s/1198s. My point about it being softer is the change in percent is the change in lever travel. That one you had used up 5% more lever than the stock one. I'll put the 18/19 on my bike (15% less lever travel) and I'll post what it feels like. Maybe OK as is. Too cold to ride here.
 
Good maths by bagger. Modern bikes are notorious for softer braking systems due to the ABS block and longer lines. That’s why I don’t get why you don’t just bypass the ABS block and run lines direct to the calipers. Save yourself lots of time and money and you’d be working the problem up properly instead of just throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks.

One other thing to consider is that the 19 might help mitigate the softness of the 16 when running through the ABS block so there’s that.
 
I’ve done both on track 17 is a better feel and working ratio to the std callipers.

You can’t change the size of the callipers because that’s what the ABS needs to see to work correctly.

You can’t remove the ABS because the bike needs its info to work correctly

Conclusion 17 on a 18 or 20 ratio is correct and an improvement in feel and operation
Amen!
 
!7 RCS is softer/longer travel than the stock master with the pivot on 18 about 2.5%. 7.5% firmer with the 20 pivot. 19 RCS was used with M50 calipers primarily. I'm still going to try the PR 18/19 but expect it to be too wooden. Looks pretty easy to make a couple of plugs for the lever pivot holes to be able to move the pivot 0.04 or .06 inch (1 mm or 1.5 mm) which would give you very similar lever response to the 17RCS with a 20 pivot.
 
If ones precision measurement tools and machinery are in FU's (freedom units as per SD) then FU's it is. Metric was created by the French because they've got lousy math skills.
 
andyb said:
I’ve done both on track 17 is a better feel and working ratio to the std callipers.

You can’t change the size of the callipers because that’s what the ABS needs to see to work correctly.

You can’t remove the ABS because the bike needs its info to work correctly

Conclusion 17 on a 18 or 20 ratio is correct and an improvement in feel and operation
Amen!
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Was that using non-R Stylema calipers (or 4x30mm calipers)?

I wasn’t thinking of changing caliper size.

Also no intention whatsoever of removing or bypassing ABS.

17 is certainly the recommended ratio by Brembo (ignored by Ducati and KTM of course) and seems popular.

I would have already ordered the 17RCS CC but the number of strong recommendations for 19 have confused the issue for me. I sort of fancy the billet as well and quite a few people have told me they switched to this from 17RCS and much preferred the feel (which is subjective of course) but that they don’t think it feels wooden at all.

I used to be indecisive but now I’m not so sure.
 
baggerman said:
!7 RCS is softer/longer travel than the stock master with the pivot on 18 about 2.5%. 7.5% firmer with the 20 pivot. 19 RCS was used with M50 calipers primarily. I'm still going to try the PR 18/19 but expect it to be too wooden. Looks pretty easy to make a couple of plugs for the lever pivot holes to be able to move the pivot 0.04 or .06 inch (1 mm or 1.5 mm) which would give you very similar lever response to the 17RCS with a 20 pivot.
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That’s interesting. So 17RCS set to 18 would be a softer feel with longer travel than the OEM 16x21 and set to 20 would not be that much firmer or shorter travel.

Wouldn’t that mean the 19x18 might not actually be too firm? There’s a 19x16 as well. The Galespeed calculator recommends a total ration of 85-95 for track use - 19x18 is a bit lower than that and 19x16 is within it.

Thanks for the responses - it’s an interesting subject.
 

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