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endodoc said:
Thing I’m scratching over is, if they have already acknowledged that the vac doesn’t prevent you from getting the virus and that even with vaccination, you can spread the virus if you do get it or have it then WTF is the point of a vac mandate. Very strange
Click to expand...

That is one of the issues until the vax rate is at herd immunity level.
 
Let’s go with that. Let’s bookmark where things are now and revisit in 6 months and see what happens. I’m still not going near it because of my personal experience with coronavirus but I’ll be objective.
 
endodoc said:
Let’s go with that. Let’s bookmark where things are now and revisit in 6 months and see what happens. I’m still not going near it because of my personal experience with coronavirus but I’ll be objective.
Click to expand...

This brightens my day considerably. Very much.

Jag


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Paul G said:
620, 000 people dead and you gloss over it like its nothing, If I were to sum up the sentiment on this thread, it's I don't care that much (unless it happens to me) The justifications are next level!- they were old, they were going to die any way, they had an underlying problem. In other words throw these vulnerable people in the rubbish heap like dehumanised pieces of ....- can you see where this is going?

Comparing to other causes of death is called whataboutism, and the intention is to diminish, distract and justify. It is a logical fallacy and you may as well ask "Have they found a cure for DEATH yet?" All of this is aimed at avoiding the fact that 620,000 real people, fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, people with friends and lives are now dead of whom many would still be alive just like yo
Click to expand...

Sorry dude, it about a logical rational response to a problem. For example there are a certain number of people who die in car accidents every year (70K to 80K here in the US). We accept this as just the cost of faster transportation for the masses. If we were that concerned about saving the lives of all of the vulnerable people then we could just ban any automotive vehicle. That way no one would die in a car crash. But that is not a rational response is it?
When comparing causes of death its not a case of "Whataboutism" its a question of reacting to an event in a logical/ measured manor and not intentionally making it out to be worse than it is. Clearly COVID is a virus and yes it does kill some people. But do you react with panic? With statistics designed to insight peoples fears? (CNN ran the daily death toll continuously on their banner for a very specific reason, to scare the .... out of people. Why did they do that? What did they have to gain from it? In the beginning we didn't know what to expect. So much so that a USNS hospital ship was sent to New York. Mobile field hospitals were set up in stadiums and parking lots all over the country to pick up the slack with the threat of hospitals being over run with patients. In fact CNN got busted for showing footage of people basically over crowding an ER in the US sitting on the floor. (unfortunately the footage they were using was from Italy.) Want to know what happened? The hospital ship saw a few patients but the NT mayor told them they could leave as they weren't needed. Some of the mobile field hospitals did see some patients but were shut down after a short time as the medical system was not over run. Remember the ventilator shortage that the media was so concerned about? Turns out that really was not much of an issue as most people who get hospitalized don't go on a ventilator so there were plenty of ventilators to go around.

Certainly your argument feels better from a moral standpoint. From a practical standpoint destroying hundreds of millions of people's livelihood (how many businesses have closed and will never reopen?), requiring the masses to take an experimental drug (yes it is an experimental drug at least according the USFDA, (yes we do get immunized from a variety of significantly more lethal diseases but they all have decades of testing behind them. There have been definitely documented short term side effects, but we have no idea what the possible long term effects of the vaccine are. We hope there aren't any but just watch any drug commercial on TV and listen to the possible side effects that they are required to advise of.), locking down people and confining them to their homes, restricting peoples movement, requiring people to have "papers", talking about putting unvaccinated people in relocation/ isolation camps (what was it that the NAZI's called those camps they set up to "relocate" a certain group of people?)

So where am I going with all of this? Basically the media has so over hyped COVID with inflating the statistics, and running non stop death rates and infection rates that a lot of people are scarred shitless about it (I see people who are wearing a mask in their own car driving by themselves, Really?). People like you who believe the .... on ....... TV start looking at people who don't want to inject their bodies with a so called vaccine with distain. I will let you in on a little secret. The media has one main goal, SELL ADD SPACE. With a not so distant second goal of pushing a specific agenda. They do this by sensationalizing stories. Spinning them to fit whatever agenda they happen to be pushing, only reporting one side of a story or not reporting on stories of significance. the COVID story is no exception.

I would totally be on board if we were talking about a virus that had a significant mortality rate. But less than 1% is not enough to justify taking the extreme measures that have been and will be taken.

And to top it off you can still contract and transmit COVID even after getting the vaccine. But if you do get it, its not as bad.

And yes I have had COVID.
 
B Topp said:
Sorry dude, it about a logical rational response to a problem. For example there are a certain number of people who die in car accidents every year (70K to 80K here in the US). We accept this as just the cost of faster transportation for the masses. If we were that concerned about saving the lives of all of the vulnerable people then we could just ban any automotive vehicle. That way no one would die in a car crash. But that is not a rational response is it?
When comparing causes of death its not a case of "Whataboutism" its a question of reacting to an event in a logical/ measured manor and not intentionally making it out to be worse than it is. Clearly COVID is a virus and yes it does kill some people. But do you react with panic? With statistics designed to insight peoples fears? (CNN ran the daily death toll continuously on their banner for a very specific reason, to scare the .... out of people. Why did they do that? What did they have to gain from it? In the beginning we didn't know what to expect. So much so that a USNS hospital ship was sent to New York. Mobile field hospitals were set up in stadiums and parking lots all over the country to pick up the slack with the threat of hospitals being over run with patients. In fact CNN got busted for showing footage of people basically over crowding an ER in the US sitting on the floor. (unfortunately the footage they were using was from Italy.) Want to know what happened? The hospital ship saw a few patients but the NT mayor told them they could leave as they weren't needed. Some of the mobile field hospitals did see some patients but were shut down after a short time as the medical system was not over run. Remember the ventilator shortage that the media was so concerned about? Turns out that really was not much of an issue as most people who get hospitalized don't go on a ventilator so there were plenty of ventilators to go around.

Certainly your argument feels better from a moral standpoint. From a practical standpoint destroying hundreds of millions of people's livelihood (how many businesses have closed and will never reopen?), requiring the masses to take an experimental drug (yes it is an experimental drug at least according the USFDA, (yes we do get immunized from a variety of significantly more lethal diseases but they all have decades of testing behind them. There have been definitely documented short term side effects, but we have no idea what the possible long term effects of the vaccine are. We hope there aren't any but just watch any drug commercial on TV and listen to the possible side effects that they are required to advise of.), locking down people and confining them to their homes, restricting peoples movement, requiring people to have "papers", talking about putting unvaccinated people in relocation/ isolation camps (what was it that the NAZI's called those camps they set up to "relocate" a certain group of people?)

So where am I going with all of this? Basically the media has so over hyped COVID with inflating the statistics, and running non stop death rates and infection rates that a lot of people are scarred shitless about it (I see people who are wearing a mask in their own car driving by themselves, Really?). People like you who believe the .... on ....... TV start looking at people who don't want to inject their bodies with a so called vaccine with distain. I will let you in on a little secret. The media has one main goal, SELL ADD SPACE. With a not so distant second goal of pushing a specific agenda. They do this by sensationalizing stories. Spinning them to fit whatever agenda they happen to be pushing, only reporting one side of a story or not reporting on stories of significance. the COVID story is no exception.

I would totally be on board if we were talking about a virus that had a significant mortality rate. But less than 1% is not enough to justify taking the extreme measures that have been and will be taken.

And to top it off you can still contract and transmit COVID even after getting the vaccine. But if you do get it, its not as bad.

And yes I have had COVID.
Click to expand...

100%

Well said.
 
I dont agree with a fair bit of what you said but at this point I'm with Endo, lets just see how this rolls. We are in lockdown, I hate it and I hate the hype and ........ but we are very privileged on our remote Island. Good luck guys and stay safe, this entire situation sucks balls
 
Ya this all sucks balls especially the politicizing of it.
The trouble is covid-shot will not create herd immunity as it is not killing the virus but turning the vaccinated into carriers. Some carriers are mutating the virus.
So now there is the "Delta" mutation of the virus which is getting hyped as "worse." And then there will be next-year's vax, and the year after and the year after. See where this is going?
We have to kill the virus to reach herd immunity or evolve the virus into a non-pathological passenger. We have circa 60 billion banal virus in our bodies that evolved to become banal because they die when we die. A successful virus becomes banal. A successful human kills the virus.

Big Pharma today is not your grandfather's big pharma. The polio vaccine took decades to become relevant and functional and went through bitter competition for funding.
Now it's a proper vaccine after OVER 60 YEARS of iteration in several countries and is eradicating the polio virus. See timeline history***
Lumping vaccines or anti-vax into a bucket is creating confusing. We need to not do that for real. They are really truly not all the same thing. Some vaccines are awful, Some are great. If there is anything that became abundantly clear to me in 2020 it's that we need to go past the hype and propaganda and sales pitches and paranoia and fear mongering and take charge of our own well being by going deeper staying rational as possible.

Reality check on the famous vaccine:
*** polio vaccine Time line 1935 - 2016
  • Early polio vaccine projects (1935)
  • Cultivating poliovirus in human tissue (1936)
  • Koprowski polio vaccine tests (1948-1950)
  • Salk poliomyelitis vaccine trial (1952-1953)
  • Vaccination programs suspended (1955)
  • Koprowski OPV test (1957)
  • Testing and licensing of Sabin polio vaccine (1959-1963)
Poliomyelitis vaccination results:
Polio officially eradicated in the Americas (1994)
The Pan American Health Organization declared that wild poliovirus had been successfully eliminated in the Americas, thanks to extensive vaccination efforts. The World Health Organization proceeded to declare the Americas as the first region to achieve its goal of wiping out polio.
Salk polio vaccine reconsidered in the U.S. (1997)
Studies determined that since 1968, Sabin’s OPV vaccine had created 8 to 10 polio cases annually. The U.S. then chose to revise its immunization protocols to deliver only injection-based vaccinations (IPV) by the year 2000.
Poliomyelitis officially eradicated in Europe (2002)
The last reported case of polio on the European continent was a young Turkish boy in November 1998. In the summer of 2002, the World Health Organization declared that polio had also been eliminated in Europe.
Type 2 polio vaccine called into question (2016)


Paul G said:
That is one of the issues until the vax rate is at herd immunity level.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Not sure I agree with you 100 percent on your police work there lou; Less than 100% effectiveness of the vaccine is still effective, just not perfect. The best way for evolution to create a more transmissible and possibly lethal variant is for the virus circulate among billions of people unimpeded. There is nothing different between immunity gained naturally by exposure or from the vaccine, so in my view the more vaccinated the less likelihood for a new variant to develop. Yes its whack a mole but we will get there as you mention eventually we will just live with it.
 
Paul G said:
I sympathise with your position, but its based on classic "big pharma" fear. Big Pharma and medical science have saved billions of lives. Id say the scales at this point are way, way in favour of BF than the guy at the diner.

You keep insisting that its "experimental" how about provide the details because using your argument the jury is still out on eating peanut butter.

Employment is a trickier issue but vaccine certificates have been required around the world in various countries for children so they can attend school- no one except the nutters object because no one wants their kids to get Polio, Tuberculosis, Whooping cough or Diptheria. Last time I went to Indonesia a condition of my visa was a cholera shot among others- no shot no travel.

Point is this is not new, and with several billion having received vaccines Id say it was pretty solid, certainly more solid than a typical Panigale fastener
Click to expand...
It is not a vaccine first of all. - Second of all where is the long term data? The listed actual vaccines are a one and done system. This is a experimental treatment, it is not a vaccine, do not confuse the two because everyone is calling it a vaccine.
 
Paul G said:
… The best way for evolution to create a more transmissible and possibly lethal variant is for the virus circulate among billions of people unimpeded. There is nothing different between immunity gained naturally by exposure or from the vaccine, so in my view the more vaccinated the less likelihood for a new variant to develop.
Click to expand...

To my understanding this is not only wrong, it’s 180 degrees oppositely wrong.

Do some research maybe. Viral evolution tends naturally toward reduced, not greater, virulence. And there absolutely can be differences between naturally acquired and post-vaccination immunity. Funny thing about viruses - they aren’t concerned about your views. :)
 
But probably a month depending. The only good part is that the roads are cold and damp so not missing out too much on the riding front plus I'm antisocial anyway haha!
 
As clearly visible in this thread, their divide and conquer tactics is working out flawlessly
 
In spirit of Endo's idea to bookmark and revisit this thread which i highly agree, I do have to respond to Paul's response on my post. After that I am leaving it alone.

Paul G said:
620, 000 people dead and you gloss over it like its nothing, If I were to sum up the sentiment on this thread, it's I don't care that much (unless it happens to me) The justifications are next level!- they were old, they were going to die any way, they had an underlying problem. In other words throw these vulnerable people in the rubbish heap like dehumanised pieces of ....- can you see where this is going?

Comparing to other causes of death is called whataboutism, and the intention is to diminish, distract and justify. It is a logical fallacy and you may as well ask "Have they found a cure for DEATH yet?" All of this is aimed at avoiding the fact that 620,000 real people, fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, people with friends and lives are now dead of whom many would still be alive just like you.
Click to expand...
Paul, in may post I have never said "I don't care about these people dying, they are pieces of .... etc" also you can sum it up anyway you want but those are your words and your interpretation of my post, please don't try to attach them to my name!
Now you mentioned whataboiutism, what would you call your constant attempt to put those 620k of people in front of all others that died from other illneses during these trying times, are they less important to you!? I really don't get the logic behind this.

Paul G said:
A failed education is what is going to get you in the end, if you want to live among educated healthy people then educate them and provide affordable healthcare.
Illegal immigration is a political red meat for the base, How about ask why the South Americans are coming, what is the influence of US meddling in their affairs or its voracious appetite for drugs that has created so much pain. But for the purpose of this conversation the facts are that Illegals contribute far more to the US economy than they take and are more law abiding than the average US citizen, that's a cold hard fact on the ground.
Afghan was a train wreck, a giant pork barrel for the military industrial complex, it achieved precisely nothing. It is amusing to see what a bunch of Abrahamic theocrats have in common with the Abrahamic nuts in the US, hint its a LOT!
Click to expand...

I agree with you on education, but education that is focused on academics and how to get our kids (our future ) ready to be useful members of society and not person who is waiting for government handout to the point that they have no intention of looking for a job. Also education which will teach out kids about real history and not how to be ashamed era of their grand,grand parents and their race, also education that will not cater to certain political party...
Now your "fact"
Illegals contribute far more to the US economy than they take and are more law abiding than the average US citizen, that's a cold hard fact on the ground.
I am taking this as a extreme insult to law abiding American citizen and stupid, dude they broke the LAW when they got here illegally, not going any further!
Your source of this information is very unreliable. Information that you have may have been good when it started trip of 12535 kilometars from US to NZ , during that trip it turned bad!:)

MY only opinion on Afganistan is that we should have never gone there. If Ghenghis Khan, Alexander the great, British, Russians failed...

Paul G said:
All we are talking about is the covid response, not about whether the US is great or not. If you love your country and youre proud of it then its great.
Click to expand...
You missed my point. My response was pointed towards our fellow liberal forum member because him and his opinion sharing brothers and sisters constantly talking how this country sucks and totally taking for granted what they have here. At same time having no idea how bad many people have it around the globe.
 
This is a business plain and simple, the media narrative & gov propaganda has done far more damage than the virus. While small business owners have been forced to lockdown, put their lives on hold and many of them losing everything (while trying to provide for their families) the billionaires keep profiting. It’s a scheme to destroy the middle class and it’s working.
Not once have any health campaigns been launched to promote improved diet, exercise, sun exposure and meditation - all which contribute to boosting the immune system. Quite the opposite in fact (stay inside, order fast food delivery to avoid having to go to grocery stores, minimise human contact etc). Saying the ... is the answer to all our problems is incredibly ignorant and desperate.
Plenty of professional trolls & skeptics out there determined to convince people how hopeless the situation is. Regardless of whether you will or won’t be having a shot the enemy isn’t your neighbour with a different opinion. It’s the scummy shitheads in parliament dictating their will, profiting off your suffering and aligning themselves with big pharma & media creating this perpetual cycle of bullying and fear.
When will you start paying your reparations China? 18 months and counting of someone’s life is worth…?
05FCC835-2B4D-4D49-B8F8-3B9F0B4D411E.jpeg
 

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