Looking forward to that d170 upload at Woolich but I am grateful for what was shared already
More to come I’m sure
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Woolich Racing Tune and lag
- Thread starter GoliathPaniR
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More to come I’m sure
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Sorry never caught what you ride and tune ?
I have a 1299S. I currently use woolich and Tuneboy
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Ok fellas, first off, this wasn't supposed to be a ..... session it was supposed to be informative but unfortunately, it seems to go that way whenever Mick and I have a disagreement so lets let the facts decide.
I encourage anyone who wants to poke holes in what i am posting to please do so. Mick says that he knows the Woolich system inside and out and he's been tuning bikes for a long time etc. I don't, I only know what I see and understand and according to Mick, that's not much so here is what I have and again there could be many errors in my assessment and I look forward to the corrections.
The Woolich platform can be used as a full tuning suit in the hands of a competent tuner who has the necessary tools to do so. It can also be used by a relatively novice individual who is looking to make some changes to a bike that is running poorly via menu driven options, auto corrective volumetric efficiency tuning (A/F) and shared, pre-configured maps.
The difference between the two lie in the tools available to make corrective changes to the three parameters that are in question in this thread. Once you understand what is needed to make these changes, you will be able to logically deduce what the capabilities of the Woolich system are and therefore draw your conclusion as to whether the Woolich platform can auto tune just A/F or A/F, Ignition and ETV.
Air Fuel Ratio. You are going to need some way of measuring exhaust gasses. The Woolich kit provides you with the necessary wide band O2 sensors that allow a manual tune of A/F ratios (DUDE WITH A DYNO OR GOOD GUESS WORK) and allow A/F data to be stored via a logging device for overlay adjustments to an existing A/F map based on some input from the user (AUTO TUNE).
Ignition map. The ignition map like the A/F map needs a way of sampling the data and measuring the data in order to provide information so that changes can be made. So in the case of A/F you have O2 sensors. That's your PHYSICAL MEASURING DEVICE for A/F. Ignition timing, you need a way to measure torque. In manual tuning, this is accomplished with a Dyno. Torque measurements are made and ignition timing is modified based on what the tuner is trying to accomplish. The Woolich kit 'PHYSICALLY LACKS ANY WAY TO MEASURE THE DATA NEEDED TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS TO IGNITION TIMING" and since there is no provision for measurement, there is no provision for logging and therefore no provision to make any ignition modifications with AUTO-TUNE.
ETV: The electronic throttle valve table is the relationship between the APS (throttle) and the ETV (physical throttle valve on the throttle body). In simplistic term, its the relationship between your wrist input and the % of that input in relation to the % of the actual throttle valve opening. This isn't really an engine tuning parameter at all except in the case when APS/ETV is electronically tied to data telemetry for rider aids (not applicable here) so this is really a user interface on how the rider wants the throttle/acceleration interface to behave. Again, like the A/F and ignition scenarios, you need physical tools here. There is no possible way for the Woolich software to make any dynamic changes here or to log any data for the simple reason that this is not a DATA DRIVEN PARAMETER. It is a user interface parameter and the Woolich software doesn't read minds. Modifications are set in the data fields by the user. There is no logging of any ETV data what so ever.
"So why do some people have modified ignition values and ETV values in my Woolich map"? Simple. If you started out with a COMPLETELY STOCK ECU/MAP, bought the Woolich kit, installed the Woolich kit, made some parameter settings in the program, rode the bike, logged the ride, came back and wrote the new log file to your map, you will see absolutely ZERO CHANGES to the Ignition map or to the ETV tables.
If you started out with something other than a COMPLETELY STOCK ECU/MAP given the same scenario, your ignition map values and your ETV values will be whatever was in the map you started with.
If you started with an ECU that has a Termi up-map or an Akra up-map , Tune Boy, Bren etc and those up-maps had changes made to the ignition tables and or the ETV tables, you will see that data in your viewer and yes it is different than stock but it will never be modified any further via AUTO-TUNE.
My ignition map and ETV tables differ from stock. Alverop, B topp, Don, same thing. None of those guys started with a stock map so their ignition tables and ETV tables are whatever was in their base map before the Woolich kit was installed. The Woolich AUTO-TUNE has never modified those tables. If you compare their base map ignition tables and ETV tables with whatever number auto tune they are currently on, A/F will have changed (at least a few cells) but the ignition tables and ETV tables will match their original base map.
On page 14 of this thread Mick posts his ignition tables (cylinder 1 gear 3). Directly below it, B Topp posts his ignition tables (cylinder 1 gear 3). Take a look at them. Every cell is identical. B Topp downloaded micks map from the map share file so they are running the same map. Subsequent to the download, B Topp has run 5-6 auto tunes. The ignition map is identical to Micks map. Zero changes to the ignition map after 5-6 AUTO-TUNE sessions. I think Mick said he further modified the MC03 via auto tune to incorporate changes made by his V stacks which even further differentiates the two maps yet the ignition map remained identical.
So in closing again, this is just my understanding of how things work. Just a summation of what little I understand about the platform and tuning in general. Mick has stated numerous time that he has ran the gamut on Woolich, tried everything and understands everything. Lets go with that and assume Woolich, myself, B-Topp, Al are all seeing something different than Mick is seeing. Ok, like I said Woolich can certainly be incorrect so Mick it would be great if you could for us address in detail how the Woolich system is able to do AUTO TUNE modifications to the ignition map and ETV tables that Woolich says their platform is mechanically incapable of doing and again I'm not siding with Woolich, my assessment that it cant change those tables are based simply on my own experience, the feedback from the others and the fact that the physical hardware to make those changes via AUTO TUNE just doesn't exist in the Woolich platform itself. Looking forward to the discussion.
I encourage anyone who wants to poke holes in what i am posting to please do so. Mick says that he knows the Woolich system inside and out and he's been tuning bikes for a long time etc. I don't, I only know what I see and understand and according to Mick, that's not much so here is what I have and again there could be many errors in my assessment and I look forward to the corrections.
The Woolich platform can be used as a full tuning suit in the hands of a competent tuner who has the necessary tools to do so. It can also be used by a relatively novice individual who is looking to make some changes to a bike that is running poorly via menu driven options, auto corrective volumetric efficiency tuning (A/F) and shared, pre-configured maps.
The difference between the two lie in the tools available to make corrective changes to the three parameters that are in question in this thread. Once you understand what is needed to make these changes, you will be able to logically deduce what the capabilities of the Woolich system are and therefore draw your conclusion as to whether the Woolich platform can auto tune just A/F or A/F, Ignition and ETV.
Air Fuel Ratio. You are going to need some way of measuring exhaust gasses. The Woolich kit provides you with the necessary wide band O2 sensors that allow a manual tune of A/F ratios (DUDE WITH A DYNO OR GOOD GUESS WORK) and allow A/F data to be stored via a logging device for overlay adjustments to an existing A/F map based on some input from the user (AUTO TUNE).
Ignition map. The ignition map like the A/F map needs a way of sampling the data and measuring the data in order to provide information so that changes can be made. So in the case of A/F you have O2 sensors. That's your PHYSICAL MEASURING DEVICE for A/F. Ignition timing, you need a way to measure torque. In manual tuning, this is accomplished with a Dyno. Torque measurements are made and ignition timing is modified based on what the tuner is trying to accomplish. The Woolich kit 'PHYSICALLY LACKS ANY WAY TO MEASURE THE DATA NEEDED TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS TO IGNITION TIMING" and since there is no provision for measurement, there is no provision for logging and therefore no provision to make any ignition modifications with AUTO-TUNE.
ETV: The electronic throttle valve table is the relationship between the APS (throttle) and the ETV (physical throttle valve on the throttle body). In simplistic term, its the relationship between your wrist input and the % of that input in relation to the % of the actual throttle valve opening. This isn't really an engine tuning parameter at all except in the case when APS/ETV is electronically tied to data telemetry for rider aids (not applicable here) so this is really a user interface on how the rider wants the throttle/acceleration interface to behave. Again, like the A/F and ignition scenarios, you need physical tools here. There is no possible way for the Woolich software to make any dynamic changes here or to log any data for the simple reason that this is not a DATA DRIVEN PARAMETER. It is a user interface parameter and the Woolich software doesn't read minds. Modifications are set in the data fields by the user. There is no logging of any ETV data what so ever.
"So why do some people have modified ignition values and ETV values in my Woolich map"? Simple. If you started out with a COMPLETELY STOCK ECU/MAP, bought the Woolich kit, installed the Woolich kit, made some parameter settings in the program, rode the bike, logged the ride, came back and wrote the new log file to your map, you will see absolutely ZERO CHANGES to the Ignition map or to the ETV tables.
If you started out with something other than a COMPLETELY STOCK ECU/MAP given the same scenario, your ignition map values and your ETV values will be whatever was in the map you started with.
If you started with an ECU that has a Termi up-map or an Akra up-map , Tune Boy, Bren etc and those up-maps had changes made to the ignition tables and or the ETV tables, you will see that data in your viewer and yes it is different than stock but it will never be modified any further via AUTO-TUNE.
My ignition map and ETV tables differ from stock. Alverop, B topp, Don, same thing. None of those guys started with a stock map so their ignition tables and ETV tables are whatever was in their base map before the Woolich kit was installed. The Woolich AUTO-TUNE has never modified those tables. If you compare their base map ignition tables and ETV tables with whatever number auto tune they are currently on, A/F will have changed (at least a few cells) but the ignition tables and ETV tables will match their original base map.
On page 14 of this thread Mick posts his ignition tables (cylinder 1 gear 3). Directly below it, B Topp posts his ignition tables (cylinder 1 gear 3). Take a look at them. Every cell is identical. B Topp downloaded micks map from the map share file so they are running the same map. Subsequent to the download, B Topp has run 5-6 auto tunes. The ignition map is identical to Micks map. Zero changes to the ignition map after 5-6 AUTO-TUNE sessions. I think Mick said he further modified the MC03 via auto tune to incorporate changes made by his V stacks which even further differentiates the two maps yet the ignition map remained identical.
So in closing again, this is just my understanding of how things work. Just a summation of what little I understand about the platform and tuning in general. Mick has stated numerous time that he has ran the gamut on Woolich, tried everything and understands everything. Lets go with that and assume Woolich, myself, B-Topp, Al are all seeing something different than Mick is seeing. Ok, like I said Woolich can certainly be incorrect so Mick it would be great if you could for us address in detail how the Woolich system is able to do AUTO TUNE modifications to the ignition map and ETV tables that Woolich says their platform is mechanically incapable of doing and again I'm not siding with Woolich, my assessment that it cant change those tables are based simply on my own experience, the feedback from the others and the fact that the physical hardware to make those changes via AUTO TUNE just doesn't exist in the Woolich platform itself. Looking forward to the discussion.
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Don, he posted the ETV for the 13R up map and 13R stock map on page 16. So we know anyone starting with an up map is going to have ETV values that differ from stock. Woolich isn't going to make any additional changes to that (via auto-tune). The ignition maps at least in you Termi up changes so I am assuming the ignition changes to the akra up-map change as well. With regard to Alvarop, I believe he purchased the Woolich kit then installed my original map from map share. I believe he subsequently bought a tune boy setup which is what he has been running. Recently he used the Woolich software to up-load the TB map into the Woolich map share. I just down loaded that shared map last night and installed it into another ECU to try.
Just to be clear to everyone my current autoned map is not loaded up on map share. The Mc03 map is not a autotuned map and was stock airbox components. All my current autotuned maps are with 10mm shorter velocity stack height and few differene components inside the airbox. My ignition map and etv stuff I noticed did not change from first autotune to 2nd to 3rd to 4th autotune.
It is correct if you start off with a factory ecu never been flashed and install the Woolich package once you load a auto corrected tune into the ecu tje ignition map/etv numbers will change. If you continue to autotune through Woolich the numbers won't change after that just A/F numbers will though.
Don't know how or why but taking a virgin factory ecu and auto correcting the first initial map that's what happens. Maybe Woolich can answer that.
Oh I’m for sure going to ask them. Unless the Woolich software has a “canned” set of values that automatically populates those fields, there isn’t any way that software can set ignition timing. So I’m going to try this tonight. I have one more ECU stock that I’m going to look at the ignition and ETV tables then download my first log file into it. According to what you just wrote, the ignition and ETV files should change.
Also that would mean that the “auto tune” doesn’t make any changes to ignition or ETV ever. The “1 time change” to the ignition and ETV would be a canned initialization step in the “mr Woolich meet Mr ECU” which is something even more bizarre.
Also that would mean that the “auto tune” doesn’t make any changes to ignition or ETV ever. The “1 time change” to the ignition and ETV would be a canned initialization step in the “mr Woolich meet Mr ECU” which is something even more bizarre.
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Maybe if everyone starts opening support tickets and asking questions they will spend the time to create race tools package for our junk?
: )
The odds are better for you guys with the late version but still highly unlikely huh?
: )
The odds are better for you guys with the late version but still highly unlikely huh?
Woolich won't be putting anymore time or tools into making the 99 package any better then it is or any add ons.
I guess I'm reading this wrong or didn't understand it but first you posted that you saw slight ignition changes to the last 4 maps using autotune. Then you posted that the ignition values only change after the first map. ?????
- Joined
- May 10, 2016
- Messages
- 329
- Location
- Canada
Thanks for taking the time to
Illustrate woolich parameters , very clear info for anyone who may be a novice following this thread or thinking about woolich.
Don14r , I have a auto tune from my old 1199 uploaded on map share. And 1299 maps .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk he
Oh yeah! Sweet! Thx!
Yes great explanation of how it works Ed
*Regardless of whether or not slight changes are made during first auto tune application it seems to me manually changing the ETV table to linear design is the first thing that needs to be done
Yes great explanation of how it works Ed
*Regardless of whether or not slight changes are made during first auto tune application it seems to me manually changing the ETV table to linear design is the first thing that needs to be done
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