2023 V4R // 2023 SEASON

andyb said:

Won’t you have a clearance problem for the pot to the rear shock? Doesn’t the top shock mount get in the way..,

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You have practical experience with this?

SuperDomestique said:

No… I think we do agree on this topic So your opinion on this matter is based on experience in other fields and common sense and translating that to this scenario? Same as me. I think it’s asinine that you questioned what I’m was basing this on bc we’re all in the same boat unless your an electronics or suspension engineer (or have practical experience as some may say).

I’m not saying this is rocket science either. Rather data is only as good as its interpretation. Obviously, if you have good interpretation then hopefully you’ll have good outcomes but that’s not guaranteed. Rider’s feelings probably contribute more to fast lap times than the quantitative data. You can have a technically optimized setup but if the rider isn’t confident in it, it doesn’t mean ...... Just look at Digi from this year. He was basing his setup on Martinez and Bagnaia for most of the season and he was having trouble. But once he went to his own set up, he started winning.

For RACING, having this data makes sense. For TRACKDAY RIDING, it’s overkill and will more likely get you lost than headed in the right direction.

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I asked what you were basing it on - it was a genuine question that you managed to take personally. I thought you were saying it’s hard to interpret the data and wondered why you thought that.

For me, data supports the way I learn and try to improve. I’m using it in more general terms of course, so I use it to see if I am doing what I am trying to do rather than relying on feelings. Video is data and I doubt you think it’s overkill. I don’t think that knowing exactly what you’re doing is overkill.

spooky said:

I asked what you were basing it on - it was a genuine question that you managed to take personally. I thought you were saying it’s hard to interpret the data and wondered why you thought that.

For me, data supports the way I learn and try to improve. I’m using it in more general terms of course, so I use it to see if I am doing what I am trying to do rather than relying on feelings. Video is data and I doubt you think it’s overkill. I don’t think that knowing exactly what you’re doing is overkill.

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Depends on how it’s used or who’s interpreting it. Quantitative data is just a part of the equation. I could interpret your data one way and someone else could interpret it another wayI. But what I do know is that if you don’t have good feelings, you won’t go fast on a motorcycle. I’ve never heard a racer say I love a ...... feeling bike. Another example of how critical “feeling” is any rider on last year’s Honda. I’m sure they were optimizing the hell out of the data but in the end the chassis didn’t have good feeling.

I’d rather spend the money on a rider coach and track time than jumping on data acquisition. Only when/if your rider coach said get an AIM then that’s when I’d get one. But again, this is trackday riding we’re talking about. Basically, data won’t make you more talented. All the video instruction and data isn’t going to make you Tiger Woods.

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SUPER TANGENT (and this’ll really stir the pot)

I wouldn’t use golf as a sport comparison to motorcycle riding/racing bc golf isn’t a real sport. Golf doesn’t require physical exertion, more time is dedicated to idling around (ie walking the course) than competitive play, the competitive play is not close to continuous (therefore American football is excluded), and it’s not driven by athleticism (you can play competitively while smoking or drinking). A better (and real) sport to compare motorcycle riding/racing would by cycling.

Consider the pot stirred haha!

This is not rocket science, I am using the simplest way to collect fairly simple data - lap times/throttle/brakes/suspension to use as signifiers for improvement.

SuperDomestique said:

A better (and real) sport to compare motorcycle riding/racing would by cycling.

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I don't agree with that at all.

The primary limiting factor with cycling has more to do with the physical ability of the bike rider vs demonstrated skill.

I'm more of a runner than a cycler having only gotten into the latter after a long break in running due to a motorcycle accident.

The primary limit on a runner is oxygen consumption. This is measured as Vo2 max, but the running coach (and the name of a great recovery drink) Jack Daniels introduced the V.o2 max formula. This was a way to calculate your velocity at your Vo2 max and equate that to training paces, etc. A runner may have a Vo2 max of 45 but be incredibly efficient whereas a runner may have a Vo2 max of 55 but be incredibly inefficient. These two runners could have identical 5K times. Cycling isn't too much different. There's some skill and strategy in winning an event, be it hydration or food timing, passing skills, drafting etc., but the skill level is no where near what motorcycle riding is.

The primary limiting factor of a motorcycle rider is skill and risk avoidance; ie your experience, natural and trained ability, combined with how much risk you're willing to take

I think the golf argument is better, but clearly that's all technique. We've all saw the fat guy smoking while actually winning tournaments or being very competitive. There's no fat smokers in top level cycling or running competitions, and likely not motorcycle racing either.

bp_SFV4 said:

I don't agree with that at all.

The primary limiting factor with cycling has more to do with the physical ability of the bike rider vs demonstrated skill.

I'm more of a runner than a cycler having only gotten into the latter after a long break in running due to a motorcycle accident.

The primary limit on a runner is oxygen consumption. This is measured as Vo2 max, but the running coach (and the name of a great recovery drink) Jack Daniels introduced the V.o2 max formula. This was a way to calculate your velocity at your Vo2 max and equate that to training paces, etc. A runner may have a Vo2 max of 45 but be incredibly efficient whereas a runner may have a Vo2 max of 55 but be incredibly inefficient. These two runners could have identical 5K times. Cycling isn't too much different. There's some skill and strategy in winning an event, be it hydration or food timing, passing skills, drafting etc., but the skill level is no where near what motorcycle riding is.

The primary limiting factor of a motorcycle rider is skill and risk avoidance; ie your experience, natural and trained ability, combined with how much risk you're willing to take

I think the golf argument is better, but clearly that's all technique. We've all saw the fat guy smoking while actually winning tournaments or being very competitive. There's no fat smokers in top level cycling or running competitions, and likely not motorcycle racing either.

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I’d say running is the purest type of sport. No outside involvement. Minimal equipment.

But if you don’t think racing a motorcycle doesn’t require physical exertion then you should talk to Jorge Martin after the Indian GP.

KarlKani said:

This is not rocket science, I am using the simplest way to collect fairly simple data - lap times/throttle/brakes/suspension to use as signifiers for improvement.

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If you want to keep it simple just brake later and open the gas sooner. No need for data acquisition to tell you this

no need for you to tell me anything

SuperDomestique said:

But if you don’t think racing a motorcycle doesn’t require physical exertion then you should talk to Jorge Martin after the Indian GP.

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I've done track days and fully believe it requires physical exertion. Just not as much as cycling or running. There may have been some dramatic improvisation on Martin's part. I've done short runs (read less than 5 miles) on 100+ F days and lost 7lbs in the process. I wasn't folded in half. I also didn't rip out my chest protector and not get penalized.

So much of this depends on rider level. At my level thinking too much slows me down. I made big leaps and bounds comparing how hard and early I was getting on the throttle to the data on how hard and early some of the fastest guys I know do. Opened my eyes.

But, another thing that moved me leaps forward (literally in one day) was that I realized I was thinking and analyzing my way through nearly every part of every lap, and that was slowing me down tremendously. When I shut my mind off completely, stopped trying to look at actual mph and talking myself through every part of the lap I got way faster, simply by stop thinking, stop analyzing, and just keep my eyes down track and go as fast as I can.

So for now, I think more data would actually hurt me, by going back to thinking through the lap…i.e. saying to myself stuff like, “okay on this corner I need to be smoother on the brakes at corner entry and be on throttle earlier, or i need to rear brake more here to load the suspension differently”,

I need to just go fast, keep my eyes down track, feel what the contact patch is doing, and GO. Doing that makes me 5 seconds a lap faster than chasing tenths with data.

Having said all that, this is where I’m at, guys like Karl can probably get keen insights that are much more detailed and useful for him than they would be for me at this stage.

Part of its preference and personality too. I’ve been into archery of all forms for over 40 years. I’ve done it all and have several setups, from highly technical Olympic archery with 36 inch 3 arm weighted to the gram balancers and $1000 precision sights and rests and the whole deal. But I’ve always preferred to shoot ‘instinctive’ without sights, without all the high precision gizmos, just feel the target and let go…and up to about 60 meters I’m actually just as accurate or more so shooting instinctive versus Olympic. I definitely ENJOY it more. But that doesn’t mean that shooting instinctive is the right way and shooting Olympic is the wrong way. One style or methodology just matches ME more.

SuperDomestique said:

You have practical experience with this?

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Oh no....I know fook all about it...... I just google it, copy paste the answer and then pretend im the expert!

SuperDomestique said:

Depends on how it’s used or who’s interpreting it. Quantitative data is just a part of the equation. I could interpret your data one way and someone else could interpret it another wayI. But what I do know is that if you don’t have good feelings, you won’t go fast on a motorcycle. I’ve never heard a racer say I love a ...... feeling bike. Another example of how critical “feeling” is any rider on last year’s Honda. I’m sure they were optimizing the hell out of the data but in the end the chassis didn’t have good feeling.

I’d rather spend the money on a rider coach and track time than jumping on data acquisition. Only when/if your rider coach said get an AIM then that’s when I’d get one. But again, this is trackday riding we’re talking about. Basically, data won’t make you more talented. All the video instruction and data isn’t going to make you Tiger Woods.

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SUPER TANGENT (and this’ll really stir the pot)

I wouldn’t use golf as a sport comparison to motorcycle riding/racing bc golf isn’t a real sport. Golf doesn’t require physical exertion, more time is dedicated to idling around (ie walking the course) than competitive play, the competitive play is not close to continuous (therefore American football is excluded), and it’s not driven by athleticism (you can play competitively while smoking or drinking). A better (and real) sport to compare motorcycle riding/racing would by cycling.

Consider the pot stirred haha!

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Data, like statistics, can of course be open to interpretation, but we are talking about simple stuff, such as when you get on the throttle and how quickly, if at all, you get to 100%, etc. How you use data is of course important but if you are looking at the things mentioned then you can use it simply to confirm whether or not you are doing what you are trying to do. Facts versus feelings. How often do you think people have been surprised to see what they are actually doing on a video compared to what they thought they were doing? It’s just another data point and it’s incredibly useful.

You’ve conflated feelings and feel. Of course feel is important on a bike (and in most sports), but I am talking about feelings rather than feel - what you think you are doing and what you think is happening - the stuff in your head. That’s a bit different to being able to feel what the bike’s doing and manage traction dynamically. In other words, feelings and feel are different things. The exception to that would be the people at the very top of the sport, who have developed exceptional feel for what they are doing, but they are using data in a different way to a trackday rider. For me, it’s used to help develop technique - to show me whether or not I am doing what I am trying to do. There would be zero benefit to me trying to use data in the same way that racers use it.

For your ‘I’d rather spend the money on…’ - same as always - you can do both. If you can’t afford to then of course training comes first. The trainer will very often use video to help you see what he’s saying, and that’s data.

I don’t really see why anyone would argue that it’s better to blindly go on what you feel is happening rather than have the facts. It’s a common coaching mantra across sports that ‘feel isn’t real’.

As for your tangent…

When I was young I would have described golf as a game rather than a sport. There was more artistry required, primary due to the ball’s spin rate. These days it is a sport and if you think it isn’t then you don’t have sufficient knowledge of the modern game. Play not being continuous can make it mentally harder than a sport that is more reactive. You only need to look at the number of younger players getting injuries to realise that it’s a far more athletic pursuit than used to be the case - that never seemed to happen to older generations of professionals. If you think golf doesn’t require athleticism to do it well then you are speaking from a lack of knowledge. I’m not sure how you think you can be competitive while drinking, unless you are talking about competing against your mates.

Bringing it back to use of data, golf has fully embraced this and most coaches (and equipment fitters) now use launch monitors.

Steven31371 said:

So for now, I think more data would actually hurt me, by going back to thinking through the lap…i.e. saying to myself stuff like, “okay on this corner I need to be smoother on the brakes at corner entry and be on throttle earlier, or i need to rear brake more here to load the suspension differently”,

I need to just go fast, keep my eyes down track, feel what the contact patch is doing, and GO. Doing that makes me 5 seconds a lap faster than chasing tenths with data.

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That simply sounds like you aren’t using data to serve your needs (you are diving deeper than you should be)?

SuperDomestique said:

If you want to keep it simple just brake later and open the gas sooner. No need for data acquisition to tell you this

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That sounds like a great way to crash. I do see a lot of guys trying that approach and they often seem to give themselves some serious scares, which can really set you back.

bp_SFV4 said:

I think the golf argument is better, but clearly that's all technique. We've all saw the fat guy smoking while actually winning tournaments or being very competitive.

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They are far less common now and were always the exceptions. You also wondered how many more tournaments they might have won if they hadn’t been like that. The exceptions are often presented as the norm in order to make a particular argument.

This forum is tops lately, one or two legitimate post about the subject matter - then devolves into pages of Waffle House. Have some respect for peoples threads + projects

Fair.

Karl just wants his thread to be a show and tell… clean it up everyone. Stop ....... around

Just my 2 cents, so nobody should take it personally

I learnt to take a small increment on only one " subject " at the time and improve this and this only.
Once it is improved, I move to the next one.
If you don't the have a chance for coach, you should try to ask for an instructor.
FUNDAMENTAL is to take it easy and start in sequence with:
- PROTECTIONS ( if you crash, and you probably will, the least damage yourself, the sooner you could get back on the bile, that is what matters )
- Then go to body position ( it make you safer and faster, for free )
Then go to ask for an instructor( not cheap, but very BETTER than running around without a clue )
Then Data
It is very helpful after a certain level of riding and knowledge, for one reason only.....to see where and how improve.
How/when to Open the throttle, how/when/ to brake, how and when to go back on the throttle, where you think you are doing something and in reality you are screwing up, when you think you are spinnig or slidind, when you reached the max leaning angle and when you have margin etc

Sorry to be a little long

Ride on

Spent some time in the shop today.

-Mocked up AIM routing - ACC is small and everything will fit quite nice
-Started to measure + plan new brake lines front//rear - aside from Ports for brake pressure sensors I also decided to try a thumb brake this season so that will be some extra rear brake planning/routing