- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1,044
- Location
- belgium
heard great stuff on the 1299 as a no hassle race bike.... they did put in the Ti rods though...
Help Support Ducati Forum:
heard great stuff on the 1299 as a no hassle race bike.... they did put in the Ti rods though...
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1,044
- Location
- belgium
Had a couple dry track days on the new bike, things are starting to come together. The electronics are all working great, suspension/geometry I'm still working on. Heading back to the track tomorrow and will try some new settings out. The front end with the Mupo superbike forks is really close, just needs a little more dive under braking, so I took the oil level down 10mm and dropped 1/2 rate on the springs down to .975kg. I think that will put me right where I need to be, then I can fine tune it with compression damping. The rear end is the problem area at this point. Running the shorter 899 swingarm with a 200hp engine is something new, and getting it dialed in has proven difficult. I started stiff and high on the back end and figured I'd soften it up as needed, but overall it proved to be just way too stiff and the tire struggles for grip. So now I'm taking the swingarm pivot down to the -4mm position and brought the ride height down 5mm and will try to get it set up really soft and then start stiffening it up based upon how much squat I'm getting. It's really nice to be able to see how much squat is occurring by using the data collected from the potentiometer on the rear shock, usually it's just a shot in the dark. Once I get the back end dialed and can get to full throttle on the corner exits, I should be right where I need to be for lap times, then I'll do a full writeup on how all of the electronics work. It's pretty amazing, but I don't want to say HOW amazing until I have the lap times to back it up! Ha ha!
Starting to get the hang of the data analysis now with the Magnetti-Marelli electronics system. There's a TON of information available, and frankly it's overwhelming at first. After countless hours poring through my data, comparing it to other test rider data that I got, and consulting with the "expert" I have a good base to start from. The software allows you to create your own "views" of the data so you can arrange it in a way that makes sense to you. Here's my personal "view" that I'm working form now. It gives me a good picture of what the bike is doing at any point on the track.
Waw... MM ... doesnt get any better than this, now does it...
the 2015 SSTK system?
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1,044
- Location
- belgium
Hi jarel,
Great build and project.. love the methodollogy behind it...
i am right in concluding that to stable her out , you dropped her lower in genreal and put her more on her back , thereby keeping her from getting too much on the nose and lifting the rear so stoping her pogo-ing when coming off the brakes and back on the throttle?
if so, then that is what was done to mine to the same effect... the great thing it is she seems to keep a much tighter line ...
grtz
Great build and project.. love the methodollogy behind it...
i am right in concluding that to stable her out , you dropped her lower in genreal and put her more on her back , thereby keeping her from getting too much on the nose and lifting the rear so stoping her pogo-ing when coming off the brakes and back on the throttle?
if so, then that is what was done to mine to the same effect... the great thing it is she seems to keep a much tighter line ...
grtz
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Messages
- 2,899
- Location
- australia
That makes a lot of sense to me and a issue I have been having with my bike . Would you mind letting me know what is working for you letting you over come the pogoing effect ?
jarelj
Site Sponsor
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,159
- Location
- Omaha, NE USA
Waw... MM ... doesnt get any better than this, now does it...
It's the Marelli SRT system from BSD in England. The mapping for the electronics strategies was very close right out of the box, we only had to go through a couple iterations of data analysis and tweaking the settings. Engine mapping was also spot-on since they had already done a few 1199R's with that system.
jarelj
Site Sponsor
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,159
- Location
- Omaha, NE USA
Yes I think that's accurate, in general the bike is lower compared to the typcial Superbike setup, espcially compared to how we had to set up the 1098/1198 series bikes. Also the rear being lower helped with stability, but not as much as lengthening the wheelbase did. When I had the 899 engine in, the shorter wheelbase was fine, and I had no instability issues. But with the 1199R engine, the short wheelbase was overwhelmed by the power and the big issue was too much anti-squat causing the rear to rise during acceleration. Lowering the swingarm pivot to -4mm helped, and then adding 13mm to the swingarm length pretty much cured it. The only issue I have left now is just not enough fork dive under braking, which I'm going to address with an oil height change based upon my conversation with Luca on the Barni team last weekend. That should get it turning in a little tighter with less effort.
jarelj
Site Sponsor
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,159
- Location
- Omaha, NE USA
Made the adjustments to the bike today to try next weekend based upon the info I got from the Mupo guys. Oil height in forks now 170mm, front height set at 512mm from bottom of the "frame" to the center of the axle. This essentially puts the top of the fork tube flush to the top of the upper triple (Mupo triples, but top triple is modeled from a normal stock 1199 piece). Also reduced the spring rate to .95kg from .975kg before. Trying to get more dive out of the forks to use full travel, which is why I lowered the spring rate. My new "theme" is using full travel on the suspension without bottoming, the race team guys seem to think this is the holy grail and it's what they are chasing for setup at each track. Looking for the most effective weight transfer both directions to maximize grip on acceleration and aid in turning after braking. I didn't give it much thought before, but talking with Luca it made me re-examine what I was trying to accomplish. It's a totally different philosopy than the "traditional" method. Maybe the end goal was the same, but the way we got there with preload and compression damping adjustments to alter the fork dive and shock squat, is totally different. Using this method, we only alter the spring rate to determine the optimal rate for each track that allows the use of full travel. Preload is used to "tweak" the setting at a minor level, but never outside of a narrow range. There is no measuring of "sag", as it's irrelevant. This will obviously only work for a track-only bike and with a consistent rider. We'll see how it goes!
Last edited:
jarelj
Site Sponsor
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,159
- Location
- Omaha, NE USA
Oh, also for the rear, the shock linkage rod length is set to 118mm, and the eye-to-eye length on the shock is 312mm, which translates to 230mm of ride height using the Corse-copy tool from Dan Kyle. Talking with Luca about the rear linkage, they had determined in consulting with the Ducati Corse guys that the length of the linkage rod should be fixed and never altered because it alters the leverage ratio of the linkage. They change ride height only with shock length, and never with the linkage rod. He said this was critical to the setup of the bike. 118mm is the length of the stock rod, so that's what I set mine to.
BTW, all of the suspension measurements are with the forks and shock fully extended to compress the top-out springs.
BTW, all of the suspension measurements are with the forks and shock fully extended to compress the top-out springs.
This is good info.
Curious what you are using the dampening adjustments for? Just to adjust feel? Also, are you thinking swapping front and rear springs per track depending on braking needs for that track?
On the rear, are you shooting for a preload range for the spring when you install it... Say 10-12mm, then if you are bottoming, go to a heavier spring?
Was at Laguna as well, next time let me know and I'll buy you a beer!
Thanks for sharing!
jarelj
Site Sponsor
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,159
- Location
- Omaha, NE USA
The damping adjustments are to dial in the base response of the suspension for handling and tire wear, as well as a little bit of rider feel I suppose. I have the baseline settings for the Mupo forks and shock, so that's what I'm starting with. I probably won't do much swapping of springs since I ride on the same two tracks 90% of the time, and I'm not trying to win a championship or anything. Much of my riding is at a lower pace working with other riders, so for that kind of riding it doesn't really matter, I could just as well be riding my Scrambler and probably run about the same lap times. Of course my Scrambler has Mupo suspensoin on it too!
I'd only swap springs if I went somewhere vastly different to race, like Road America. I didn't take my Panigale up there this year, I took my Ninja 300 to race and it blew out 5th gear in practice, so I wish I would have taken the Panigale! The pro race teams are doing it at a much more finite level than I would since they're striving for every last 1/10th.Yes, there's a range for the preload, 8mm max for front spring preload and 6-9mm rear preload. Ride height 228-234mm, depending on which swingarm pivot position. And swingarm length 548-554mm.
I would not suggest anyone try to replicate those settings however, it's not a magic bullet, but if you've started from scratch with a new chassis like I did it gives you somewhere to start.
jarelj
Site Sponsor
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,159
- Location
- Omaha, NE USA
Just finished an epic track weekend at Motorsports Park Hastings! It was my first time out with the new ride height and suspension settings that I got from Mupo, and it was a huge improvement! I went faster on that track than I had gone in several years, and 3 seconds faster than I had gone all year on this bike. And it was easier to ride, both in hitting the apex as well as getting on the gas earlier and harder. At full boil, there is not another bike on the track that could hang with me on the straights. Well, other than ONE bike......... Zemke was practicing for the MotoAmerica round............
Of course Zemke went 8 seconds faster than me on his 2nd lap on the track but hey, he's a pro! Here's a shot of Jake on the TPL / Desmo Veloce / Ducati Omaha superbike that he will be racing (hopefully) at Indy next weekend!
Of course Zemke went 8 seconds faster than me on his 2nd lap on the track but hey, he's a pro! Here's a shot of Jake on the TPL / Desmo Veloce / Ducati Omaha superbike that he will be racing (hopefully) at Indy next weekend!
Attachments
jarelj
Site Sponsor
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,159
- Location
- Omaha, NE USA
Had a chance to go through the telemetry data now to see where the time was picked up, and interestingly it was virtually all picked up in the twisty parts of the track with higher mid-corner and exit speed. In the fast parts of the track, the laps traced over almost identically from earlier this season. So I think that's confirmation that the bike "handles" better with the new settings. I went through historical lap times to see how long it had been since I ran this lap time at this track, and it was way back in 2011 so 5 years, and 4 bikes ago. I'm very happy with that, my intent with this bike was to preserve what I liked about the 899 last year, with a boost in power, and I feel like I've accomplished this now. Guess it's time to build a new bike??? Ha ha!
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 1,123
- Location
- Oregon
I'm sure it's in your older posts, but what did you set your fastest time on? 848 I'm guessing?
jarelj
Site Sponsor
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,159
- Location
- Omaha, NE USA
Yes, my second 848 that had the Nemesis TCS system on it, and all the race parts (linkage, triples, Ohlins, forged mags, etc.). That was .2 faster than I just ran yesterday, and yesterday I only did 1 "fast" lap at the end of the day, so it definitely has a lot more in it. I ran 1 sec slower than that for several laps in the race on Saturday night, and that was just dicing around with some of the other guys having fun. The lap on the 848 would have been pushing pretty hard, which I'm not as willing to do these days. The fastest I ever went at that track was on my original 848 that had a built engine and was a full-on race bike, riding balls-out as fast as I could go, and that was another 2 secs quicker than current.
Last edited:
jarelj
Site Sponsor
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2012
- Messages
- 2,159
- Location
- Omaha, NE USA
4 Words: Pirelli Diabo Superbike Slicks. First time out on them today, I went faster than I had all year on the Bridgestone V02's which I consider to be a stellar tire. I had huge confidence in corner entry straight away on the Pirellis and the drive grip was astounding. 200/60 SC2 rear, 120/70 SC1 front. Back at the track tomorrow for some additional testing with them, so far I'm very impressed!
First time out on them today, I went faster than I had all year on the Bridgestone V02's which I consider to be a stellar tire. I had huge confidence in corner entry straight away on the Pirellis and the drive grip was astounding. 200/60 SC2 rear, 120/70 SC1 front. Back at the track tomorrow for some additional testing with them, so far I'm very impressed!
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2015
- Messages
- 946
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
Yes indeed. I'm a HUGE fan of the Pirelli Superbike slicks (not so much the Pros though). I tried the Dunlop UK NTEC's and as good as those were, I still prefer the feedback and feel from the Pirellis. I have always run faster on the Pirellis, but at my favorite track, Thunderhill raceway, my BMW S1000RR used to eat the rear SC2 and the tire experts from Pirelli couldn't explain why. I never had the issue at any other track, just Thnderhill. I am betting that the 1299 will be a bit easier on the rear and I also have the SC2.5 tire available, which the Pirelli distributor that supplies us at the track calls the "Philip Island special".4 Words: Pirelli Diabo Superbike Slicks.
Cheers and thanks for the info.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Messages
- 2,899
- Location
- australia
4 Words: Pirelli Diabo Superbike Slicks.
Try the SC 0's on a warm day they are sensational . I have been using the Superbike Slick for some time now as our series is sponsored be Pirelli and cannot fault them .
What pressure have you been using ? I generally run the same set up you currently have fitted .
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Messages
- 2,899
- Location
- australia
Is thunder hill a fast track ? Phillip Island will eat my rear tyre as well I'm lucky to get through a day on the rear .
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2015
- Messages
- 946
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
It is a pretty fast track and fairly abrasive, but it has a couple of flat out weird corners. Turn 2 is a 3rd gear 75 mph left hander that literally never seems to end. I love it, but it puts a huge load on the left side of the tire. Secondly, it is always a freaking FURNACE up there; I don't remember the last time I rode there and the temperature was less than 105 Fahrenheit in the shade (and there's no freaking shade) and it's quite often 110 degrees. The track temperatures routinely hit 150 Fahrenheit, so tires take a massive beating.
I also run the SC1 in front and the SC2 in rear. My starting pressures are usually set by the tire specialist, but he tells me he usually runs me at 29 psi cold rear to start and 31 psi cold up front, with the goal of being around 34-35 psi hot for both tires.
Have you tried the Prelli SC2.5 yet? My Pirelli rep tells me it's guaranteed to NOT get destroyed like the SC2.
Cheers.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Messages
- 2,899
- Location
- australia
Try the SC 0 for the hotter days you will get better life and sensational grip . I have not tried the SC 2.5 will be interested in what you think of them . Your pressures on the front are similar to mine but I run the rear at around 27 psi hot on the rear the SC 0s even less as they have a stiffer side wall than the others .
Similar threads
Register CTA
Register on Ducati Forum! This sidebar will go away, and you will see fewer ads.
Sign Up
Recent Discussions
-
-
Torque Values on 2026 Base Model Front Fork Pinch Bolts?- Latest: BP PanigaleV4S
-
-
-
-