Back in the shop

andyb said:

Pierobon.....everything else is TAT.

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Andy, did you have to twiddle anything to get the Akra to work with the Pierobon subframe?

I used to enjoy this thread.

I’m looking forward to @Steven31371 getting a V4R…

Snuggly said:

Andy, did you have to twiddle anything to get the Akra to work with the Pierobon subframe?

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the mounting holes for the underseat exhaust are in the same place... I think you can specify with or without...

So the V4 25 Anniversario 916 is back looking mostly OEM, unless you look closely lol

Still has all the MotoCorse stuff, the suspension stuff, the exhaust, and the H20 Radiator.

I forgot how much I like the Foggy livery, gorgeous bike…I might just keep it as my street bike for when I want to go for a quick romp between track days.

The KTM RC 8C is living up to expectations…so fun. I’ve had it at Chuckwallah for an easy break in day, and last weekend at Big Willow.

Big Willow is really a track set up for liter bikes…very long straights and huge sweepers like Phillip Island…even so I was about 2 seconds faster than on my V4.

The bike has sooo much feedback, and is soooo forgiving…so it tells you exactly what mistake you made, but lets you correct it even mid-corner without terrifying you.

Will take several more track days to get use to it. On every single corner after two full track days I find myself saying “I could have waited longer to lift throttle and I can carry way more speed through this corner.”

Not gunna lie, some small part of me misses correcting my bad lines and slower corners by twisting the throttle and being able to close the gaps on the straights with the V4.

But this bike is making me a better rider already, much more focused on, and aware of my line, and markers etc…

It is a blast to ride, it just flows around the track and asks you to take that corner faster than the last time, and tip in at a faster speed, and wait longer to let off throttle coming off of a corner.

Corner exit is where it really shines though…with this bike I’m already well into the meat of the throttle before I even reach the apex, and am accelerating hard almost as soon as I’m done trail braking. You can essentially have the throttle damn near pinned right as you pass the apex, which is a hoot.

Not that the bike needed it, but I did make a few mods

Mostly because I had the parts in my garage already, and they do not change the fundamental characteristics of the bike.

I put my GP4-MS calipers on there as well as my thumb break, and my Brembo Evo GP 17 brake master cylinder.

The bike is torquey and light so the front end gets light on acceleration and the rear brake is absolutely needed. I’m used to using a handbrake for the rear caliper so that was a no-brainer modification.

With regard to master cylinder, for whatever reason KTM and Kramer use a 19 cylinder piston with those 30 mm piston calipers. I found that the breaking was too abrupt with that set up. The 17 mm master cylinder meets better with those 30 mm caliper pistons, more ability to finesse and feel the brakes. Which is on that bike. You hardly use the brakes except for trail breaking and you trail break every single corner. On many quarters just the engine breaking is enough to get you slow down to the right corner entry speed. so I end up, just dragging the rear a little bit to shift and close down on the Apex without even touching the front brake.

Fun bike, Not as scary and thrilling as the V4, but just as fun in a different way.

Thanks Steven, that's a very good insight into the relative track experiences on the two bikes.
Do you think the better times on the KTM are from improved lines that are more difficult to achieve accurately on the V4, later braking, the better corner exit drive that you mention or all of the above?

I guess I'm asking if you were to go back to the V4 after learning more from the KTM, could you match or better the KTM (on a track that isn't favouring power)?

I'm trying to talk myself out of going down a similar route to you

Interesting that you are faster on the KTM.

If engine braking is enough to slow you down to the required speed then it sounds like you can leave it even later coming off the throttle if you use the brakes. That's probably a significant mental adjustment!

I guess the master cylinder is a matter of feel - as discussed elsewhere, Brembo recommend 17mm for those pistons, many use 19mm and KTM and Kramer choose 19mm, while Ducati fit 16mm.

Did you notice any difference with the GP4-MS over the stock Stylema or did you put them on immediately simply because you have them. I seem to recall that you have titanium pistons on the MS.

The KTM sounds like a lot of fun and it seems it is achieving what you wanted. I'm not at all jealous...

It will be interesting to see how the experience translates to the V4R when you eventually get one.

cl955 said:

Thanks Steven, that's a very good insight into the relative track experiences on the two bikes.
Do you think the better times on the KTM are from improved lines that are more difficult to achieve accurately on the V4, later braking, the better corner exit drive that you mention or all of the above?

I guess I'm asking if you were to go back to the V4 after learning more from the KTM, could you match or better the KTM (on a track that isn't favouring power)?

I'm trying to talk myself out of going down a similar route to you

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Yeah I was thinking about that specifically, why am I faster already on the KTM and will that carry over to the Ducati.

To the former, yes, it’s better lines, and better drive off the corner earlier in the corner…as I get use to the bike I think my corner entry will be a lot faster on the KTM than I was achieving on the V4.

To the latter, yes I absolutely think I will be faster on the Ducati than the KTM when I go back to the Ducati. But right now, I sorta got to a peak of lap times on the V4 because the bike was so savage and fast that it was kinda keeping me from really focusing on the line and being comfortable with drive off the corner…the bike’s power is a cheat code, and gets in the way of rider development for a guy like me.

On a highly technical track like Streets of Willow I think this bike might always be faster than a V4 in the hands of anyone who’s not a professional rider. Which bares out, because RoadRacerX has gone faster than the official lap record at Streets and he did it on his RC 8C.

So after only two track days, yeah for sure I think this bike will make me faster on the Ducati, it’s impossible to do a fast lap on it unless you get your line right, body position right, braking on entry right, and pull on corner exit right…but the bike is very forgiving when you make a mistake, and encourages you to ‘get it right’ while you feel in complete control of the bike.the RC 8C give ALOT MORE rider feedback than the V4, so you know immediately what you just got right or just got wrong while in session…so the very next lap you are correcting versus on the Ducati sometimes it would take hours or days of self assessment to figure out after the fact exactly what I was doing wrong.

I guess a different way of saying it, is that at least for me on the V4 I felt like (if I go often enough) that my riding improved track day to track day, whereas on the RC 8C I feel myself improving on each lap.

spooky said:

Interesting that you are faster on the KTM.

If engine braking is enough to slow you down to the required speed then it sounds like you can leave it even later coming off the throttle if you use the brakes. That's probably a significant mental adjustment!

I guess the master cylinder is a matter of feel - as discussed elsewhere, Brembo recommend 17mm for those pistons, many use 19mm and KTM and Kramer choose 19mm, while Ducati fit 16mm.

Did you notice any difference with the GP4-MS over the stock Stylema or did you put them on immediately simply because you have them. I seem to recall that you have titanium pistons on the MS.

The KTM sounds like a lot of fun and it seems it is achieving what you wanted. I'm not at all jealous...

It will be interesting to see how the experience translates to the V4R when you eventually get one.

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Not much difference between the GP4-MS and the Stylema’s at my riding level at least…pad choice and MC choice seem to make a much bigger difference.

And you are exactly right about. I’m still not carrying enough speed into corner entry on the bike. It’s probably gonna take two or three more track days to get adjusted to this and that regard.

It’s no surprise that you would break way later on the RC 8C versus the V4… but what has been a big surprise is how much later you need to wait before you lift off the throttle… I’m still adjusting to that because it feels like I’m defying the laws of physics to stay in the throttle as long as I know I need on approach to a corner. Basically I just need more laps to get mentally adjusted to it on.

Thanks Steve. What you have said makes perfect sense. I'm in a similar position and had been trying to do too much on the brakes, ruining my line and not getting enough drive on the exit.

Does the KTM engine need a lot of servicing and refreshes, or is it more in line with other road bikes that are used on track?

I bet every corner you are leaving it as late as you dare to come off the throttle and then exit the corner thinking "could have waited longer".

Sounds like a lot of fun.

How is your corner speed comparing to the V4?

Please do keep the updates coming (even if it's not a Ducati).

cl955 said:

Thanks Steve. What you have said makes perfect sense. I'm in a similar position and had been trying to do too much on the brakes, ruining my line and not getting enough drive on the exit.

Does the KTM engine need a lot of servicing and refreshes, or is it more in line with other road bikes that are used on track?

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There is a manual that you can download from Kramer’s site (for gp2-890rr) that outlines the servicing. Basically engine rebuild every 30 hours.

Edit: minor service at 30 hours (bearings), major service at 60 (pistons, valves, oil pump)

Slow = fast.

If you aren’t exploiting the V4’s low power mode on the track, you’re missing out. You’d probably also see these kinds of improvements running your V4 in the low power mode bc you’re not rushing corners and making up for bad lines using the straight line power which then just perpetuates poor lines.

Ignoring the weight difference of course.

cl955 said:

Thanks Steve. What you have said makes perfect sense. I'm in a similar position and had been trying to do too much on the brakes, ruining my line and not getting enough drive on the exit.

Does the KTM engine need a lot of servicing and refreshes, or is it more in line with other road bikes that are used on track?

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They use a slightly upgraded version of their Street 890 engine, so pretty simple maintenance cycle…the engine isn’t what makes this bike, it’s the chassis…I think the 1st major engine refresh that they recommend is at 60 hours of actual racing. So you could probably get away with twice those hours of track day time. It’s also a lot cheaper bike to work on than the V4.

I figure between 35 and 45 track days before a major engine refresh.

spooky said:

I bet every corner you are leaving it as late as you dare to come off the throttle and then exit the corner thinking "could have waited longer".

Sounds like a lot of fun.

How is your corner speed comparing to the V4?

Please do keep the updates coming (even if it's not a Ducati).

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It’s not just how late you let off the throttle and get on the brakes where I’m saying to myself ‘I could have done more there’ it’s also the roll speed through the corners…on every corner I’m still feeling like “I could do this way faster” my roll speed through the corners is already as fast as I was on the V4, but I feel like I’m WAY under the limit of this bike and it encourages you to do it faster instead of scaring you not to lol

SuperDomestique said:

Slow = fast.

If you aren’t exploiting the V4’s low power mode on the track, you’re missing out. You’d probably also see these kinds of improvements running your V4 in the low power mode bc you’re not rushing corners and making up for bad lines using the straight line power which then just perpetuates poor lines.

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It’s not that simple, it’s not just down to power levels alone, and I have ran the V4 in low power mode on a bike that weight 398 pounds wet…with the KTM it’s the weight, and more importantly the chassis feels a lot different…much more feed back and manageability from the chassis and suspension itself on the RC 8C.

Of note, on a good day I was getting the V4 up to about 160 mph on the front straight of Big Willow…on the KTM I was hitting 150’s there. The Ducati speeds reached are not that much greater on the straights of most tracks, although you get to top speed a lot faster on the V4…but you also start accelerating much earlier on the RC 8C.

I’m already at or slightly ahead of my lap times on the RC 8C than I was on the V4, after only two track days with it. It’s just a more manageable bike at my rider level…and at even advanced (but not professional) rider levels I know guys that are as fast or faster on this bike that a V4.

The engine on the V4 is completely addictive and absurdly fun, but in terms of lap times all that power doesn’t mean anything unless you can really use it all, at my riding ability I am certainly not using it all. Not even close.

Steven31371 said:

It’s not just how late you let off the throttle and get on the brakes where I’m saying to myself ‘I could have done more there’ it’s also the roll speed through the corners…on every corner I’m still feeling like “I could do this way faster” my roll speed through the corners is already as fast as I was on the V4, but I feel like I’m WAY under the limit of this bike and it encourages you to do it faster instead of scaring you not to lol

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That’s indicative of the confidence it’s giving you. I kinda want one… and you could remove ‘kinda’ from that sentence…

Steven31371 said:

It’s not that simple, it’s not just down to power levels alone, and I have ran the V4 in low power mode on a bike that weight 398 pounds wet…with the KTM it’s the weight, and more importantly the chassis feels a lot different…much more feed back and manageability from the chassis and suspension itself on the RC 8C.

Of note, on a good day I was getting the V4 up to about 160 mph on the front straight of Big Willow…on the KTM I was hitting 150’s there. The Ducati speeds reached are not that much greater on the straights of most tracks, although you get to top speed a lot faster on the V4…but you also start accelerating much earlier on the RC 8C.

I’m already at or slightly ahead of my lap times on the RC 8C than I was on the V4, after only two track days with it. It’s just a more manageable bike at my rider level…and at even advanced (but not professional) rider levels I know guys that are as fast or faster on this bike that a V4.

The engine on the V4 is completely addictive and absurdly fun, but in terms of lap times all that power doesn’t mean anything unless you can really use it all, at my riding ability I am certainly not using it all. Not even close.

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Less weight > more power.

spooky said:

That’s indicative of the confidence it’s giving you. I kinda want one… and you could remove ‘kinda’ from that sentence…

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Get one, but get the Kramer not the KTM…you have to go through Kramer for any support on the bike and parts, and it has a slightly better ECU.

Almost no tangible difference between the bikes, but back end support is phenomenal with Kramer and non-existent with KTM

Steven31371 said:

Get one, but get the Kramer not the KTM…you have to go through Kramer for any support on the bike and parts, and it has a slightly better ECU.

Almost no tangible difference between the bikes, but back end support is phenomenal with Kramer and non-existent with KTM

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That’s the way I would go if I do it. I’ve only just got the V4R though.