Ducati Panigale V4 916 25 Anniversario Build Thread

[chris320]

raul, thanks for the info. from what you say, the quick release couplings definetely lend themselves toward the racing setup. last thing i want is leaking and oxidising joints when not removed very often. i will try to find out more regards the proti titanium direct bolt-into caliper option that bmw alpina pictured.(of course, that will also need a swivel point somewhere for correct fitment)

 

[chris320]

actually Hel made the new lines for my 1299R, easier job as i simply replicated the original lines, not sure if they altered the banjo fittings to match the gp4 rx calipers as the job was done at the ducati dealers here in the uk. (actually they have my originals to use as templates). this time, on the v4, i didnt want that original banjo bolt connection.

 

[BMW Alpina]

Hi I called Goodridge and Hel today and this is what I was told. They both say the quick release couplings are aluminium and they can leak or oxidise after a couple of years. Hel went phone step further and said Staubli produce the best quality fittings and said I should buy theirs. There are two types. In line and a type that bolts directly to Caliper. These are the codes for the in line type male and female. 1652/ba/l/kr/je and 7652/ba/l/kr/je. The Hel brake lines are rotatable at the banjo if using crimped fittings and Goodridge’s are not. They have bolt on type fittings if you want to ensure you can rotate the fittings to get correct fitment. I experimented with different lengths and fittings and am awaiting now what should be the final batch of

raul, thanks for the info. from what you say, the quick release couplings definetely lend themselves toward the racing setup. last thing i want is leaking and oxidising joints when not removed very often. i will try to find out more regards the proti titanium direct bolt-into caliper option that bmw alpina pictured.(of course, that will also need a swivel point somewhere for correct fitment)

Hello guys,
If you want to learn more, download the PDF document from Staubli website:
PDF Download Section
Choose the product as SPH and then on the "specific brochure" choose: SPH/BA motorsports - Hydraulic

You will see that for brake fluid you need to choose the O-Ring in Ethylene propylene (EPDM)material.
and you need to Add /JE at the end of the part number when specifying this (although most likely all the vendor already choose this model, but check to make sure).

As with all connection using O-ring, after several years of use, you need to replace the O-Ring to prevent leak and you should be fine. I did not bought the MotoCorse brake fluid reservoir for my 17RCS Corsa Corta master cylinder because I worry the O-Ring would leak after several years and ruin the fairing, however, the Staubli is located further down and will not ruin the fairing, so I won't worry too much. I am also sure it is not that hard to replace the O-Ring on the Staubli based on the picture from the PDF brochure, beside it is a clean break/quick break solution, right, so just disconnect the two male/female staubli and then change the O-Ring (well I hope it is like that since I haven't bought them yet, so I can't really see the construction of the sealing system), but again, I think it should be simple.

Another thing about aluminum and oxidation is, Aluminum oxidize very fast, but once they oxidized, the oxidize layer actually become the protective layer to prevent further oxidation, so I will not worry about oxidation problem.
The leak (if any after few years) will be caused by the O-Ring not from the aluminum oxidize, otherwise, all the airplane (our our bike) will have a problem since most of them have body/frame made of aluminum.

Now, aluminum can have metal fatique, and when they are fatique, they just gave up and broke without warning. However, since those staubli connector were not face with a lot of load, I don't see how they can just broke by themselves...
but to make sure, I would buy the one that also function as banjo connector and bolted them directly to the caliper (using banjo bolt) instead of how some people kinda like hang them between flexible braided hose.

EDIT:
What I really worry about the STAUBLI is, if you park your bike somewhere, and some JEALOUS people disconnect your brake connection... that would be a big problem !!!,
or maybe they know how expensive it is, and they just CUT your line to steal the Staubli Connector (at least from the side that connect to the braided hose)...
I mean just for the front brake calipers, you are looking to pay around $750 for the 4 pieces of Staubli's connector... a lot of people would be tempted to steal it...
although this does not apply to my application since my bike is just sitting pretty, standing still, looking fast in my living room


More EDIT:
And if somehow you still worry about the strength of the aluminum, the SPH model also available in Stainless Steel or even Titanium.

 

[Raul1976]

Can we have a discussion about the abs system and how it can be affected about the brake mods. Of course we can start a new thread. The brembo ms has 30mm pistons like the brembo stylema so your abs should
Operate normally. Changing to the GP4 RX is only recommended I understand when bypassing the abs unit.

 

[chris320]

hopefully bmw alpina, you finish your brake setup soon and can see how it goes. i cant do much anyway till i get back to my bike later this year!

 

[BMW Alpina]

Can we have a discussion about the abs system and how it can be affected about the brake mods. Of course we can start a new thread. The brembo ms has 30mm pistons like the brembo stylema so your abs should
Operate normally. Changing to the GP4 RX is only recommended I understand when bypassing the abs unit.

Hi Raul,
I think it is best if you create a brand new thread for this ABS discussion for using GP4RX with different size piston caliper since that way, your question will not be hidden inside the 49 pages of my thread and more people who have that specific interest might be able to participate since they can see your new thread with the specific title.

 

[chris320]

Raul, the gp4 rx calipers seem to work fine on my 1299R through the abs system. i had not even thought about piston size, so im glad to hear that the mc calipers should work on the v4 with abs!

 

[chris320]

bmw alpina, they dont seem to do the banjo (20 deg) quick release coupling in titanium, only al.

 

[BMW Alpina]

bmw alpina, they dont seem to do the banjo (20 deg) quick release coupling in titanium, only al.

Hi Chris320,
Yes, I noticed that too in the brochures... you need different style... to connect.
I haven't look for this adapter, but you might be able to get a Metric Male 10mmx1mm (with crush washer) and AN3 Female Adapter,
then use Staubli Socket, UNF male thread Par# SPH 03.1652/BA/IA (bolted directly to this AN3 Female port of the adapter above)
this one is Stainless Steel part# so should be more reasonably price compare to the titanium model.
The Titanium Part# SPH 03.1652/BA/TI/KB

or use this one:
Socket, metric male thread, Part# for Titanium: SPH 03.1410/BA/TI/KB
This one use O-Ring, and I am not sure whether the O-Ring will be torn when we tightened it if the caliper port do not have the "o-Ring groove", but I could be wrong.
Also, maybe it is possible to use crush washer on this model...

 

[chris320]

seems complicted! cheers.

 

[BMW Alpina]

seems complicted! cheers.

I just asked Staubli directly, hopefully they will responds soon. Now I am really curious and want to find out (although most likely I will use the banjo model anyway)

 

[BMW Alpina]

I haven't heard back from Staubli, however I did my own research and here is what I found:

It is possible to use the Staubli Socket, metric male thread Part# SPH 03.1410/BA/L/KR with Cooper washer as shown in this picture below, however, please note that this is connected to a distribution block with a total of 3 hoses supporting the distribution block (and the distribution block itself might be secured with a bolt through that through hole on the distribution block). This means the Staubli socket will not be subjected to any outside push/pull/sideway force.



Mounting this Staubli Socket, metric male thread Part# SPH 03.1410/BA/L/KR directly to the FRONT Brembo Brake Caliper is a different story because:

a. it will be subjected to many forces from the jolt from the road bump (remember the caliper is NOT suspended/unsprung weight so any force from the road bump is directly transferred without any suspension to absorb the shock).

b. it also have to withstand the side by side forces when the steering turns (plus the whiplash effect of the hoses and also the other Staubli plug connected on top of the Staubli socket)

c. Please take a look at the drawings below:


you can see that the "L" dimension is only 8mm and not all of those 8mm is threaded shape, meaning it will only have about 5mm of thread that actually hold (clamp) everything. Compare this to a normal banjo bolt which usually have 10mm of thread available and about 8mm of them engaged. this means the clamping force from the torquing are divided only among 5mm of thread. This put more stress on both the Staubli Socket Connector and the thread inside the Brembo Caliper itself !!!
Plus, both the Staubli and the Brembo were made from aluminum so the chance of this thread fail is higher.
Aluminum main weakness is metal fatigue and it will break without warning... so if you are using aluminum, you better have to design it properly and based on all the above, I just worry if after thousands of mile of hard driving and the aluminum threaded section (below the hex) just snap due to metal fatigue

Now you can always purchase the Staubli Socket in Titanium (stronger thread, right?), Part# SPH 03.1410/BA/TI/KV, however this means the 5mm thread engage inside the Brembo Aluminum Caliper will have higher chance to break/stripped before the Staubli socket during torquing, but of course this is worse... since you don't want the thread in your Brembo caliper to be broken.

d. Please take a look at the picture below:

I don't know how other Brembo caliper banjo port shape, but this is the picture of the banjo port on my stock Brembo Stylema caliper.
As you can see, it have a "higher/protruding" ring (marked by red arrow). That higher ring help to "crush" the cooper washer, but at the same time, that means it also might crush the O-Ring of the Staubli Socket Metric Male Thread SPH 03.1410/BA/L/KR, because instead of grooves to accommodate the O-Ring, it actually protrude. I did not have the measurement of the O-Ring, so there is a small chance that the O-Ring of the Staubli Socket have larger Internal Diameter than this protruding ring of the Brembo Stylema caliper port, but I doubt it...
so this means, we better use cooper washer, right?

well, take a look again at the drawing above, where it say "14/FLATS" indicating the largest diameter for Hexagonal shape is only 14mm... compare that to the regular Banjo Bolts which have the head diameter of around 15.5mm.
Why this matter? because this again means those 14mm Hexagonal shape of the Staubli Socket have small area to push/clamp the cooper washer and thus more stress compare to a regular banjo bolts (more area to press).
And regular banjo bolts are made of steel and in my case ProTi Titanium Bolts while this Staubli Socket is made by aluminum.


Based on all the above, I rather use the Staubli Banjo Connector, take a look at the drawing below:

First, Staubli take precaution due to aluminum material by making the "thickness" of the banjo to 13.2mm (instead of the regular 10mm for stainless steel).
This is why, it will need LONGER banjo BOLTS.

Second, since this will follow banjo standard size, the inner and outer diameter of that banjo area will be FLAT and about the same diameter as the cooper washer, allowing for more uniform pressure.

Third, it will allow the use of a MUCH STRONGER Stainless Steel or Titanium Banjo Bolts to provide the clamping force.

Forth, those Stainless Steel or Titanium Banjo Bolts will also have the full thread of 10mm with at least 8mm of the tread engage to the thread inside the Brembo Caliper (vs only 5mm if we use the Staubli metric socket).
3mm more thread engagement might not seemed to be much but if you use, percentage, that 3mm extra means 160% more thread engagement vs. the 5mm. (so percentage wise it is a lot).

Because of all the above, even if it is possible to use cooper washer with Staubli metric socket to connect it directly to the caliper, I will prefer the Staubli "banjo" style connection instead.

EDIT: also using the Titanium material will only overcome the "strength" and "metal fatigue" issue of the aluminum, but still have other weaknesses as describe above, not to mention much higher price and it also weight more than aluminum
SPH 03.1410/BA/TI/KB (Titanium Socket) weight 16 grams
SPH 03.1021/BA/L/KR/BJ (Aluminum Banjo Style Connection) weight 14.2 grams


RE-EDIT:
Actually Staubli have a different more compact (and more expensive) quick couplings connector model the CBR02 series and from their PDF catalog it shows that
the Maximum pressure for the CBR02 is PS (bar) 300, however the pressure is DOWNGRADED A LOT if using Cooper Washer as seal:
Version with copper washer sealing maximum pressure is only (bar) 120

 

[SickDuc]

This isn’t just a build thread, I’m learning a ton reading everything haha, thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[endodoc]

The Staubli “o ring” piece is a special application part. It doesn’t pertain to anything in this conversation. If you are running Brembo or Nissin GP calipers then you can include them in a conversation. The Staubli 45 degree fitting requires a special length bolt. The single banjo is too short and the double is obvious too long. The steel version of this bolt is available from Spiegler. There is only 1 supplier of the Ti version of this bolt (see photo). PM me if anyone needs one. With regard to crush washers, I have run these parts with standard Brembo supplied copper washers for years with zero issues. I have have issues with the aluminum washers.

 

[chris320]

I'm starting to see why it's rare that anything other than standard banjo bolt fittings are used on road bikes! so many issues to think about whiist trying to get the right lengths. I reckon for now, with the photos and lengths Raul can supply for the GP4 RX setup, I could get the lines made up for my MC calipers. 2 of the lines entering the abs system have long 90 degree bends, and 2 , 90 degree ish bends in the rear brake line, would be great to see how Raul's final fittings to the abs and rear brake look like. Also, the oem lines use substancial pieces of metal tubing, presumably for extra strength from abrasion (stones etc), and heat protection. would it be possible to manafacture new lines with an extra sheath in those parts?

 

[BMW Alpina]

This isn’t just a build thread, I’m learning a ton reading everything haha, thanks!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi SickDuc,
I am glad that you find some useful information from this thread.
Please kindly feel free to share information from your experience modifying your bike, I am sure I can learn a lot from you


Sunday evening update
It's amazing how Freight Forwarding companies like FedEx and also Amazon direct delivery now works on 4th of July and on Sunday. I guess the market is a very strong force
So yesterday, during the 4th of July FedEx still work and deliver part of my Goodridge Shadow Series Banjo Adapters order from Summit Racing. One of the banjo adapter below is for the Oberon Clutch Line.
Initially, I want to purchase the Stainless Steel (with Stainless finish) for this banjo adapters, however, only the Shadow Series (Black color) came in the 15Degree angle which I think will fit the ABS line better.
Plus this Shadow Series is also made from Stainless Steel so I decide this is actually better. It will also give good contrast to the ProTi Banjo Bolts (or in the Oberon Case, Stahlbus banjo/bleeder combo).
On Monday, the rest of my Banjo Adapter order from Summit Racing should arrived, and I will take picture to show how it will be oriented on the ABS.
Some of you might ask, why don't just use the "crimped" style connection? Well, I plan to use the crimped connection only when the banjo moves (like on the front caliper and on the front master cylinders).
But on the static connection like on the Oberon clutch slave cylinder or on the ABS, I want to use this banjo adapter so I can use the "SWIVEL" Female 3AN connector. This way, the other end of the hose with the crimped banjo can have their "orientation" easily adjusted


A few days ago, I dig into my old treasures to find what or if any Goodridge parts (from my past Brembo upgrade for my Honda Fit) that I can use and turn out, I have a collections of brand new Cooper Washer and aluminum.
What really caught my eyes was some of the cooper washer are not shiny, while the other one is very shiny:



Then, I realize, I also still need to POLISH my upcoming Cooper Nickel Hardline not to mention polishing the rear suspension bracket/link before they undergo Gold Anodizing.
I checked with a local shop and the rate is $125 per hour which I am sure is a normal rate, however, I decided to just bought all the sanding wheel, polishing compound etc and will do the polishing myself, so I can learn how to polish metal
So I order them from Amazon Friday evening, and it already arrive today (Sunday).... there are some more polishing compound on the way, but I can't wait to start polishing (including those cooper washer).
They will be so shiny, my smiley emoji will need to wear Dark Glasses hahaha



And wait, there is a bit more...
So I had bought all the ProTi Titanium KIT for my bike, and now I am still buying more bolts from ProTi, to also replace the bolts that ProTi did not sell as a kit...
However, I do have some bolts that I did not use from the ProTi kit because I have further customization. For example there is an M6x20mm ProTi titanium in silver that was part of the rear brake reservoir kit, and I had been trying to find any location that can use this bolt, and I finally found one.

There is one single bolt that hold the braided oil line from the oil cooler, and I was hoping it is an M6 with 20mm in length. So I took it out and turn out it is M6x20mm (with the regular hex socket head).
I was so excited, but then all my socket tools bit for TORX T-30 are too long, and the space in that area is very limited (due to the front exhaust manifold) to install the ProTi bolts using my regular socket bit, so I was unable to tighten the bolt...
This was on Friday evening, and I decided to also order a manual TORX T-30 wrench and Amazon also deliver them today, so I manage to use it:


And this is the result:


I also found some TORX T-30 super short socket and I ordered them today (not arrived yet). hopefully this super short T-30 socket will allow me to use my torque wrench to tightened this bolt to 10Nm. At this moment, it is tightened by my hand...
just want to make sure

This 4th of July weekend had been a very productive weekend, however, more parts and modification coming soon

 

[BMW Alpina]

I'm starting to see why it's rare that anything other than standard banjo bolt fittings are used on road bikes! so many issues to think about whiist trying to get the right lengths. I reckon for now, with the photos and lengths Raul can supply for the GP4 RX setup, I could get the lines made up for my MC calipers. 2 of the lines entering the abs system have long 90 degree bends, and 2 , 90 degree ish bends in the rear brake line, would be great to see how Raul's final fittings to the abs and rear brake look like. Also, the oem lines use substancial pieces of metal tubing, presumably for extra strength from abrasion (stones etc), and heat protection. would it be possible to manafacture new lines with an extra sheath in those parts?

Hi Chris320,
In case you haven't notice, my brake line upgrade will consist of replicating all those steel hard line but with a "shiny and polished" cooper nickel hardline instead.

I also just ordered (a few hours ago) some Goodridge Fire Protection Sleeve for the area that need extra heat protection. (and at the same time it will also make it look nice with the Goodridge logo )

Also, as soon as the rest of my Brembo Shadow Line Adapters arrive (Hopefully tomorrow), you will see how I use those on the ABS side, which will allow for "easy" orientation using "swivel" female AN (or in some area M10x1.0 DIN bubble female swivel connection) even to the other side of the hose that goes to the brake master cylinder, please stay tune
Note: it might look hard initially, but after you do it once, it's like building a very long thin Lego

 

[endodoc]

Chris320. I am a firm believer in using examples of success in guiding decisions that's why I suggest you first identify exactly what you are trying to accomplish and then look for examples of successful outcomes to emulate. Again there are a lot of guys on this board who have done a variety of successful, road and off road brake component applications. Your decisions will also be based on function over fad or vice versa at some point. Do a google search of any brake setups from BSB, WSBK, ASB, etc. Look at the components and hardware they are using to get some ideas. I am certainly not saying that you need race spec pieces on your street bike or that race pieces are the best solutions for your application but in general, this is the direction of the trickle down performance tree.

 

[chris320]

Chris320. I am a firm believer in using examples of success in guiding decisions that's why I suggest you first identify exactly what you are trying to accomplish and then look for examples of successful outcomes to emulate. Again there are a lot of guys on this board who have done a variety of successful, road and off road brake component applications. Your decisions will also be based on function over fad or vice versa at some point. Do a google search of any brake setups from BSB, WSBK, ASB, etc. Look at the components and hardware they are using to get some ideas. I am certainly not saying that you need race spec pieces on your street bike or that race pieces are the best solutions for your application but in general, this is the direction of the trickle down performance tree.

i agree with what you are saying. i guess im trying to accomplish a 'race bike/ motogp look, thats why i love the nickel plating on the new mc calipers.. of course i don't need them for performance value, but i wanted to swap the standard sylema calipers and needed something better! and like the idea of quick release couplings, but i'm not trying to build the ultimate road/track bike. Standard road superbikes have well exceeded my requirement and capability a long time ago, but like guys on this thread, i like researching and adding parts to my bikes.

 

[chris320]

Hi Chris320,
In case you haven't notice, my brake line upgrade will consist of replicating all those steel hard line but with a "shiny and polished" cooper nickel hardline instead.

I also just ordered (a few hours ago) some Goodridge Fire Protection Sleeve for the area that need extra heat protection. (and at the same time it will also make it look nice with the Goodridge logo )

Also, as soon as the rest of my Brembo Shadow Line Adapters arrive (Hopefully tomorrow), you will see how I use those on the ABS side, which will allow for "easy" orientation using "swivel" female AN (or in some area M10x1.0 DIN bubble female swivel connection) even to the other side of the hose that goes to the brake master cylinder, please stay tune
Note: it might look hard initially, but after you do it once, it's like building a very long thin Lego

hi, yes i was aware from the thread, you planned to use the copper nickel lines.far too difficult for me, but am looking forward to see your finished products!