Ducati V4 S vs Aprilia RSV4

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AmpForE said:
Hence, why Ducati started with a 999, hmm, let's go to 1098, oh wait, again not enough, 1198, hmm, the lighter weight is not making up for the lack of power, .... it, 1299 - 205HP! scratch that, 195 HP and I can't make euro4/5 in current price point and keep up with the power. Let's do a V4, but alas, 1100 cc, gots to keep the power advantage, let the others come up to us.
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You're operating under the guise that there is some arbitrary limit that is being imposed somewhere.. They are road bikes. Those limits are only for racing. Manf. are open to build w/e they think the consumer will like.. perhaps like a bit higher torque V4? Although a bit annoying for some, I like that they are OK with bucking the trend/norm and just doing what they think will be "better" and more favorable. Just because other manf's decide to align their engines specifically with their racing side of the house, doesn't mean it has to be that way. They do it because it's more cost effective to do so. Which means, their focus is more strictly on the bottom line vs. the consumer..

On the racing side, all those details are worked out behind closed doors when they make up the rules. Twins have always given up RPM in favor of CC. It's not really akin to cheating when you're limiting one side of the equation. It's simple math/science. With higher RPM comes more HP, which is why RPM is limited in many different classes of racing.

If a manf. wants to be the biggest swinging .... in town, more power to them. Only benefits the rest of us with more cool .... to play with :D.

My 2c.
 
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reganc said:
asking a Ducati Forum which bike is better you are only going to get one answer likewise you ask the same question on the Ape forum.

I think the Ape is a nice bike and very smooth but it's heavy and IMHO feels a little dated, I expect the latest Duc to crush it in tests and so it should it's the latest greatest and at a very high starting point in $$ terms
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I don't necessarily think that is 100% the case. I mean, yeah, some opinion is swayed in one direction, but I think people can identify when something is truly a step ahead, which the Pani V4 is in comparison to the RSV4.

For example, the best available superbike right now is the HP4 Race, hands down. As far as performance/specs go, there is a pretty clear leader. Maybe some 1299 SL owners may feel otherwise, but it's undeniable. Now, I still think the Ducati's are the sexiest of the bunch and extremely high performing, but they can't claim the crown in this particular category.

It may change down the road, but that is all part of the fun, right? ;)
 
But the HP4 Race isn't street legal whereas the 1299SL is. I get the point you're tryin to make but it wasn't a fair comparison.
 
Halo2 said:
Which all they probably do to the v4r is make it a screamer, easiest and cheapest way to make more HP and smoother delivery.
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That's not how power delivery works. Screamers 4's are pretty much the worst you can get when it comes to smooth delivery. Less vibrations into the chassis and seat, way more into the drivetrain and tire.
 
TurboLag said:
That's not how power delivery works. Screamers 4's are pretty much the worst you can get when it comes to smooth delivery. Less vibrations into the chassis and seat, way more into the drivetrain and tire.
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Obviously didn’t read the link, the only ducati in MotoGP recently to win the championship GP7 was a screamer engine.
 
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AmpForE said:
Hence, why Ducati started with a 999, hmm, let's go to 1098, oh wait, again not enough, 1198, hmm, the lighter weight is not making up for the lack of power, .... it, 1299 - 205HP! scratch that, 195 HP and I can't make euro4/5 in current price point and keep up with the power. Let's do a V4, but alas, 1100 cc, gots to keep the power advantage, let the others come up to us.
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What makes and good race bike/engine doesn't always translate to a good road bike. I would rather have a CC bump outside race rules that will make the bike better for where the majority of people will ride it. Mid range torque is will be used far more than HP at the top of the rev range on the road. If you want to race buy an R but for everyone else that rides roads and track days why would you worry about confined by race rules when building an engine outside them would yield better results.

Look at MV Agusta, there best selling sports bike is the F3 800 yet it doesn't fit into any race category, and is arguably better suited for nearly everything than the 675 (I won a 675, and the 15,000 scream it gets going is amazing, but it isn't as good on the street and you got to get the engine spinning up above 8k to get it to come alive).
 
F3BobaFett said:
What makes and good race bike/engine doesn't always translate to a good road bike. I would rather have a CC bump outside race rules that will make the bike better for where the majority of people will ride it. Mid range torque is will be used far more than HP at the top of the rev range on the road. If you want to race buy an R but for everyone else that rides roads and track days why would you worry about confined by race rules when building an engine outside them would yield better results.



Look at MV Agusta, there best selling sports bike is the F3 800 yet it doesn't fit into any race category, and is arguably better suited for nearly everything than the 675 (I won a 675, and the 15,000 scream it gets going is amazing, but it isn't as good on the street and you got to get the engine spinning up above 8k to get it to come alive).
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I agree. One of my favorite bikes was my Speed Triple. The 05/06 models had 90% of its 77 ft pounds of torque at 3000 rpm. It didn't have much up above 9k but below that I didn't have much of a problem keeping up with people. And honestly, on the street how many times are you up above 10k.

My original point is in comparing the RSV4 to Ducati's V4 is not an apples to apples comparison. With an extra 100 cc you would expect the Ducati to have more power and midrange. But that may not make it a better bike. There's more to compare. I'm betting the Aprilia is smoother than this V4 with the double pump firing order, although I really hope it's just as smooth as the RSV4. Aprilia also has 9 years of chassis development where this is Ducati's first year. The desmo used a trellis frame.

In the end it should be a very fun comparison, and a truer comparison will come in 2019 or 20 when the other manufacturers have a chance to react, if they decide to. Ducati's price point puts it in a league of its own, and might suggest that Ducati is going after a the upper end of the Superbike market. The other manufactures may just let them have that corner of the market.
 
Halo2 said:
Obviously didn't read the link, the only ducati in MotoGP recently to win the championship GP7 was a screamer engine.
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I did, and can mention that the author of that article has zero clue about engine harmonics and how they affect the output speed of the crankshaft in each cycle (that's per 720 degrees rotation).
 
I thought the big bang(2-2-0-0-2-2-0-0) and the screamer (1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1)were 2-strokes? have teams in Motogp been referring to their four stroke engine configurations as big bang and screamer? the ducati v4 will be a twin pulse if they make it like the desmosidici did 90˚+200˚+90˚+340˚ right?

Are you guys saying the V4R will have a 180˚-115˚-180˚-245˚ order and call it a screamer ?

that is the same as the ape BTW
 
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Macattack said:
I thought the big bang(2-2-0-0-2-2-0-0) and the screamer (1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1)were 2-strokes? have teams in Motogp been referring to their four stroke engine configurations as big bang and screamer? the ducati v4 will be a twin pulse if they make it like the desmosidici did 90˚+200˚+90˚+340˚ right?

Are you guys saying the V4R will have a 180˚-115˚-180˚-245˚ order and call it a screamer ?

that is the same as the ape BTW
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Screamer is referring to equal spacing between ignition pulses. In a 4 cylinder engine, that means all 4 pistons will be stationary simulaneously (2 at TDC, 2 at BDC), sapping rotational energy from the crankshaft to be accelerated. That means the rotational speed of the crankshaft is anything but smooth. In a 90 degree V with a shared journal (as Ducati has on both the new V4 and the old twins), one piston will be at Vmax while the other is stationary, making the rotational speed (and power delivery) very smooth.
The 70 degree offset in the new V4 refers to the journal spacing, meaning each V is separated by 70 degrees of crankshaft rotation.But each V has a shared journal.
 
Turbolag. Could you describe what Yamaha have done to the R1 engine ? I know impulses are not evenly spaced, but that’s about it.
Thx
 
Veteran said:
Turbolag. Could you describe what Yamaha have done to the R1 engine ? I know impulses are not evenly spaced, but that's about it.
Thx
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Yamaha has switched to a cross-plane crankshaft-the pistons move separate from each other. The typical Japanese inline 4 is a flat-plane crankshaft-the outside pistons move together and the inside pistons move together 180 degrees opposite from the outside pistons. A google search will get you all the info you need on this.
 
Now I'm at a computer, so it's easier to write more :p

A prescise version of what Yamaha has done compared to a conventional I4 is that they have "twisted" the crankshaft 90 degrees for cylinder 2 and 3. This means that instead of all 4 pistons being stationary every 180 degrees, 2 cylinders will be at Vmax while the 2 others are stationary. This gives the engine a smoother power delivery, at the cost of vibrations to the seat.
 
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So if I understand correctly ,essentially the v4 Ducati will feel similar to my R1.
That’s not a bad thing I guess.
It does vibrate a lot more than my zx but not in a unpleasant way. Actually quite addictive.
I think the word to describe it is “gruff”
 
Veteran said:
So if I understand correctly ,essentially the v4 Ducati will feel similar to my R1.
That's not a bad thing I guess.
It does vibrate a lot more than my zx but not in a unpleasant way. Actually quite addictive.
I think the word to describe it is "gruff"
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The pull will be very similar, we probably won't feel a difference even though one piston set is skewed by 20 degrees in the V4 compared to the R1. The R1 still has 2 stationary pistons at once (one at BDC, one at TDC) while the V4 Duc only has 1.
 
TurboLag said:
The pull will be very similar, we probably won't feel a difference even though one piston set is skewed by 20 degrees in the V4 compared to the R1. The R1 still has 2 stationary pistons at once (one at BDC, one at TDC) while the V4 Duc only has 1.
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1 stationary piston?

If 2 stationary pistons result in more vibs than 4, does 1 stationary piston end up creating more vibration than 2?
 

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